The Reality of Ancient Catastrophism

The Cydonia Files ^ | November 7, 2001 | Joe Schembrie

[JoeSchem]

From The Cydonia Files: A Daily Journal of Science and the Supernatural from a Christian Viewpoint

[blam]

Bump for later read.

[dirtboy]

Since the first century AD, we have no record of major cities -- indeed, whole nations -- being destroyed by meteor showers or volcanic eruptions.

I disagree. Meteor impacts don't happen that often, but if the Tunguska event of 1908 had occurred in a populated area, it could have destroyed a city. As for volcanoes, within the last century a city was destroyed by an eruption - St. Pierre in 1902, killed 29,000 people, which is comparable to a major eruption in ancient times. Also, don't forget the Lisbon earthquake of 1755 - 60,000 people killed and the city was practically destroyed - so we have had plenty of catastrophies over the last 2,000 years...

[Chipper]

I think the point is that none of these modern catastrophes has any correlation to a religious or prophetic event. Such as Angels warning of Sodom, or Moses telling the Pharoah about the sky.

[error99]

I figured I'd see you here.
bump

[Blood of Tyrants]

And it probably doesn't bother some here about how incredibly lucky Moses and the Jews were to have the comet pass by and part the Red Sea exactly at the time they needed it and then dissappear just as soon as the last person cleared the sea.

[WyldKard]

Actually, it's not that hard to believe that a volcano erupted not too terribly long after a huge meteor impact occured. While I am not a geologist, I might even be inclined to beileve the impact caused far-reaching effects that could have contributed to said erruption.

This planet has only just recently (in the grand scheme of things.) emerged from a massive Ice Age. Lots of flood stories were no doubt influenced by the breaking of glacial dams that occured during the dawn of human cizilization. Not too hard to believe that all sorts of weird stuff was settling out while the planet warmed back up.

[blam]

"And it probably doesn't bother some here about how incredibly lucky Moses and the Jews were to have the comet pass by and part the Red Sea exactly at the time they needed it and then dissappear just as soon as the last person cleared the sea."

I was probably the explosion of Akatori/Santorini/Thera in 1628BC that parted the 'reed' sea. I expect it is also responsible for all the plagues during that period.

[Conan the Librarian]

Leave us not forget, the great Chicago fire and the other fires that took place that evening. (Whatever that date was) There were Thousands killed in the Midwest that evening, and some have speculated that a metor exploded over the area causing these fires. Speculation, true, but plausable.

[Grut]

Immanuel Velikovsky is to astronomy as Michael Bellesiles is to history.

[Sabertooth]

BTTT

[blam]

"This planet has only just recently (in the grand scheme of things.) emerged from a massive Ice Age. Lots of flood stories were no doubt influenced by the breaking of glacial dams that occured during the dawn of human cizilization. Not too hard to believe that all sorts of weird stuff was settling out while the planet warmed back up."

Exactly. Especially when the weight of 1-3 miles thick ice being removed is considered. I would expect all kinds of plate shifts/cracking, etc. Throw in a meteor or a comet impact here and there and I expect anyone would 'get' religion. BTW, a lot of these worldwide affecting events are recorded in the 10k year tree ring data. Some have been described as near extinction events, five in particular. They are, 3195BC, 2354BC, 1628BC, 1159BC, and 540AD. There were two more minor events at 207BC and 44BC. All the events are also recorded in the ice core samples except the 540BC event which was probably a comet that plopped into the Celtic Sea and the cause of the Dark Ages, King Arthur, Merlin, etc.

[Junior]

Bump.

[Publius6961]

I think it odd that Velikovsky is quoted only in those areas where proof is inconclusive or speculative.
He never seems to get credit for continental drift and Plate tectonics, which are accepted unquestioningly today, and which he described in detail decades before it became respectable.

[Alex Murphy]

The problem with this kind of approach is not that it "de-miraculizes" these Biblical/historical events, but that it "de-ethicizes" them. What makes the Biblical events unique is not the WAY in which they happened, but the WHY. Ethics, not Physics, is the trigger for the events recorded in the Bible. Without it, the Bible becomes just a book of predictions like the World Series book from Back to the Future Pt 2. Bibical judgement alwayscomes with a warning and a way out.

Case in point: Egypt didn't suffer plagues because it was unlucky enough to build downwind from some volcano - it suffered them because of their immorality, their idolatry, and specifically because of Pharoah's stubbornness. Pharoah was asked ten times to "Let My people go" - ten chances to stop the progressive, punative plagues. Those plagues demonstrated conclusively that the Egyptian gods were impotent at best, and wholly false at the worst, while clearly demonstrating that the God of Moses was alive and more powerful. Pharoah refused to obey God. Pharoah received a consolation prize - free swimming lessons.

Perhaps instead of asking the old undergrad question "If God is all-powerful, can God make a rock so big that even He cannot move it?", we should move on to the grad school follow-up "If God is all-knowing, would He know better?"

[mlocher]

the almighty god is the creator of everything in this universe. mankind understands more of his environment than he did 5 thousand years ago. as we understand things, we tend to explain them in an understandable way. hence, we have science and use it as a tool to understand and explain our environ, and even sometimes have the audacity to predict future events.

5 thousand years ago man did not have science to rely on, or had very little science, and gave credit where it was due when something cataclysmic happened -- credit to god.

the real issue is not how we explain it, but rather who we believe is ultimately responsible for it.

[MHGinTN]

Upon awakening this morning, I was wonder about something that puzzles me still: isn't it strange that our planet went through a period of gigantic landbaseed life forms, then such a stage ended and the largest animals today are in the oceans? The gigantism wasn't limited to just the animal kingdom either; many plant species fossils attest to the outsized proportions of many plants at the same time dinos ruled the earth. What would allow for such gigantic growth? Would a twin planet in close proximity, that created a tidal force such as the Moon produces, but on a larger scale, account for such a growth period? The physics of such giants would seem to have a simple explanation for becoming no longer the norm! I don't know the science of this, so I'm raising this perhaps silly question here on a Velikofskyesque thread.

[Alex Murphy]

"But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh" -Exodus 9:12. So God was just being a prick with Egypt. As usual.

"And Joseph brought in Jacob his father, and set him before Pharaoh: and Jacob blessed Pharaoh." - Genesis 47:7.

"And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives...And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live. But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive." - Exodux 1:15-17.

Payback's a bitch.

[Junior]

Nothing quite so esoteric. The oxygen levels during the Carbiniferous Age were a tad bit higher than today, allowing large insects to exist. Gigantic land animals existed pert near up to 15k years ago (the dinosaurs were not nature's only experiment with big beasties -- some land mammals rivaled some of the sauropods in size) when there was a massive die-off of most terrestrial megafauna (anything over 45kg). The animal kingdom hasn't quite recovered from that die off just yet.