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Americans Have a Right to Know About the Council on Foreign Relations
The New American ^ | September, 1994 | John F. McManus

Posted on 11/10/2001 12:41:58 AM PST by Verax

Americans Have a Right to Know
About the Council on Foreign Relations

by John F. McManus


There exists in our nation today a privately run organization with only 3,000 members, several hundred of whom are U.S. government officials. But even though this organization possesses enormous influence over the actions of our national government, most Americans have never heard of it.

This same organization's members dominate our nation's mass media, multinational corporations, the banking industry, colleges and universities, even the military. Yet its domination is unknown to the average citizen.

The members of this small but extremely influential group are responsible for a parade of foreign policy disasters in China, Korea, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Panama, Cuba, and Africa. The group itself has always sought to lead the United States into a one-world socialistic system led by its members and their like-minded associates in other nations.

Shouldn't you know about this organization and what its members are planning for the 1990s?

This pamphlet will introduce you to the Council on Foreign Relations, the little-known New York City-based organization that is both the seat of the liberal Establishment and the main force pushing the United States into the new world order.

CFR Wants One-World Socialism

It was a disappointed but determined group of diplomats from the United States and England who gathered at the Majestic Hotel in Paris on June 17, 1919. Their disappointment stemmed from the U.S. Senate's rejection of America's proposed entry into world government via the League of Nations. But they remained determined to scrap the sovereignty of each of their nations, and all nations.

The leader of the U.S. contingent at this 1919 conference was President Woodrow Wilson's top advisor, Edward Mandell House. In his 1912 book, Philip Dru: Administrator, House laid out a plan for radically altering the American system via what he termed a "Conspiracy." The book supplied his ultimate goal: "Socialism as dreamed of by Karl Marx."

The Paris gathering led to the formation of the British Royal Institute for International Affairs and the American Council on Foreign Relations (CFR). With Rockefeller and Carnegie money backing it, the CFR quickly attracted influential Americans who used their influence to labor for the one-world socialist goal. In 1939, the organization accepted a formal invitation to establish a relationship with the U.S. State Department. That relationship soon grew into CFR domination of the foreign policy of our nation. Practically every Secretary of State for the past 50 years—serving both Democratic and Republican Administrations— has held CFR membership.

Explicitly Stated Goal

As early as 1922, the CFR’s prestigious journal, Foreign Affairs, brazenly called for "world government" at the expense of our nation's independence. Repeatedly airing this subversive goal over subsequent years, Foreign Affairs published its most explicit call for the termination of U.S. sovereignty in Richard N. Gardner's 1974 article entitled "The Hard Road to World Order."

Admitting that "instant world government" was unfortunately unattainable, the Columbia University professor and former State Department official proceeded to champion "an end run around national sovereignty, eroding it piece by piece." He also pointed to numerous international groups and causes, each of which he claimed "can produce some remarkable concessions of sovereignty that could not be achieved on an across-the-board basis."

At the time this article appeared, hundreds of CFR members were holding high government posts. Those who were required to swear an oath to support the Constitution of the United States should have immediately resigned from the CFR. None did. Nor were any asked to do so by superiors in government. Instead, the erosion of national independence and the undermining of the Constitution continued.

CFR members like Gardner have historically helped similarly determined world-government advocates achieve power in other nations. It didn't matter to them whether foreign leaders were professed socialists, communists, or whatever, as long as they shared Edward Mandell House's goal of "Socialism as dreamed of by Karl Marx." Marxism was the goal, and that has always meant economic control of the people and world government.

Over the years, therefore, CFR members have carried out the Marxist goals of their organization's founder when they helped one communist thug after another take control of once-free nations. Now that communism is no longer the favored route to socialist world government, CFR members have thrown the weight of their considerable influence behind socialists and "former" communists in Europe, Africa, and elsewhere. But they deserve condemnation for the deaths of hundreds of millions killed by communist rulers, and for the horror of life under communist dictatorships still endured by more than a billion human beings.

Past Treachery

CFR members Owen Lattimore and Dean Acheson engineered the betrayal of Chiang Kai-shek's government and the domination of the Chinese people by the bloodiest murderers the world has ever known.

CFR members Dean Acheson and Dean Rusk arranged for the no-win undeclared war in Korea, the removal from command of General MacArthur who sought victory, and the establishment of Communist Red China as the primary military power in Asia.

CFR members John Foster Dulles and Allen Dulles, filling top posts in the Administration of CFR member Dwight Eisenhower, betrayed the Hungarian Freedom Fighters in 1956 and knowingly aided communist Fidel Castro in his successful seizure of Cuba in 1958-59.

CFR members McGeorge Bundy, Adlai Stevenson, and John J. McCloy saw to it that the 1961 Bay of Pigs invasion was a miserable failure, a huge boost for Castro, and a stunning embarrassment for the United States.

CFR members Dean Rusk, Robert McNamara, and Henry Cabot Lodge pushed the United States into Vietnam and drew up the rules of engagement for our forces that made victory completely unattainable. CFR members Richard Nixon and Henry Kissinger continued those policies, presided over America's total defeat in 1973, and allowed South Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia to be delivered to communist rulers.

CFR stalwarts Henry Kissinger, Ellsworth Bunker, and Sol Linowitz arranged (with Senate approval) in 1978 to give away the U.S. canal in Panama to a Marxist dictatorship and to sweeten the incredible deal with a gift of $400 million to take it.

CFR leaders Zbigniew Brzezinski, Cyrus Vance, and Warren Christopher undermined strong U.S. allies in Nicaragua and Iran during the 1970s and helped anti-American and Marxist leaders to power.

CFR members George Shultz, William J. Casey, and Malcolm Baldrige, during the 1980s, continued the policy of supplying U.S. aid which kept communists in power in Poland, Romania, China, and the Soviet Union. These same individuals did all they could to assist and dignify the Marxists in El Salvador, Nicaragua, and South Africa. Wherever communist regimes failed, they sent more U.S. aid to the socialists and one-worlders who came to power.

CFR leaders in the Administration of CFR veteran George Bush continued to undermine the government of South Africa until it fell into the hands of Marxist Nelson Mandela.

CFR veteran George Bush deliberately avoided the U.S. Congress and went to the United Nations for authorization to unleash American military forces against Iraq in 1991. He pointedly stated that his goal was a "new world order ... a United Nations that performs as envisioned by its founders." The UN's founders, however, included 43 current or future members of the CFR. A leader of the U.S. delegation and the secretary general of the UN's founding conference in 1945 was future CFR member and secret communist Alger Hiss.

CFR member Bill Clinton has followed the Marxist game plan called for by Edward Mandell House by crusading for socialized medicine, an end to private ownership of firearms, and economic unions preceding world government through NAFTA and GATT. President Clinton has also embarked on a deliberate program, most notably via his April 1994 Presidential Decision Directive 25, which urges turning over control of U.S. military forces to the United Nations.

Destroying Checks and Balances

Americans have always been assured that tyranny cannot be established in our nation because of our Constitution's brilliant system of checks and balances. In a round-robin way, each of the three branches of government has the power to check and limit the activities of the other two. This feature of the Constitution did not materialize by chance. In the Federalist Papers, James Madison wrote: "The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive and judiciary, in the same hand, whether of one, a few, or many, or whether hereditary, self-appointed or elected, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny." But through its members, the CFR is amassing exactly the kind of tyrannical power Madison feared.

The Executive Branch is led by CFR member Bill Clinton. His top appointees include CFR members Warren Christopher, W. Anthony Lake, Bruce Babbitt, Henry Cisneros, Lloyd Bentsen, Donna Shalala, R. James Woolsey, Madeleine Albright, Alice Rivlin, Strobe Talbott, and a host of others.

The Legislative Branch's Senate has been led by CFR members George Mitchell (the Majority Leader until he retired), Patrick Moynihan, John D. Rockefeller IV, John Chafee, Hards Wofford, Christopher Dodd, Larry Pressler, Bob Graham, William Cohen, Claiborne Pell, and others. The three most important officers of the House of Representatives are CFR members: Speaker Thomas Foley, Majority Leader Richard Gephardt, and Minority leader Newt Gingrich. In addition, there are more than a dozen other members of the CFR serving in the House.

The Judicial Branch consists of the Supreme Court and all federal district and appeals courts. Of the nine justices of the nation's highest court, three are CFR members: Sandra Day O'Connor, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and Stephen G. Breyer.

Checks and balances? The CFR doesn't worry about them at all. But every American should carefully consider James Madison's warning.

Grip on the Mass Media

Why are Americans unaware of the enormous clout possessed by the CFR? How can it be that an organization formed to undo the American dream and lead this nation into a one-world Marxist nightmare can achieve such a controlling influence without the people knowing about it? Why hasn't the supposedly tough and courageous mass media informed the people about this subversive takeover?

The answer, very simply, is that the CFR dominates the mass media, which only rarely reports anything about the organization. The names of hundreds of media executives and journalists can be found on the CFR membership roster. On October 30, 1993, Washington Post columnist Richard Harwood detailed the CFR's domination of his own profession in his column entitled "Ruling Class Journalists." While never condemning what he was reporting and likely steering ambitious individuals toward the Council, Harwood characterized CFR members as "the nearest thing we have to a ruling establishment in the United States." He wrote:

In the past 15 years, council directors have included Hedley Donovan of Time Inc., Elizabeth Drew of the New Yorker, Philip Geyelin of The Washington Post, Karen Elliott House of the Wall Street Journal, and Strobe Talbott of Time magazine, who is now President Clinton's [Deputy Secretary of State]. The editorial page editor, deputy editorial page editor, executive editor, managing editor, foreign editor, national affairs editor, business and financial editor and various writers as well as Katharine Graham, the paper's principal owner, represent The Washington Post in the council's membership. The executive editor, managing editor and foreign editor of the New York Times are members, along with the executives of such other large newspapers as the Wall Street Journal and Los Angeles Times, the weekly news magazines, network television executives and celebrities— Dan Rather, Tom Brokaw and Jim Lehrer, for example—and various columnists, among them Charles Krauthammer, William Buckley, George Will and Jim Hoagland.

Americans who wish to be well-informed must seek better sources and sounder perspective such as can be found In The New American magazine. Relying on popular newspapers, magazines, and radio/television networks is asking to be programmed by the Establishment.

Secret Modus Operandi

The Council repeatedly denies that it sets policy for our nation. Yet, while discussing our nation's changing foreign policy, CFR Chairman Peter G. Peterson stated in the organization's 1989 Annual Report that "the Board of Directors and the staff of the Council have decided that this institution should play a leadership role in defining these new foreign policy agenda."

Our question is simply: How can an organization define an agenda for the nation without taking a stand or advocating a policy? The answer is that it can't. Any claim from the CFR that it is merely a debating forum open to all ideas is absurd. Even Richard Harwood knows this. In his Washington Post article mentioned previously, he wrote that the CFR journalists he listed "do not merely analyze and interpret foreign policy; they help make it."

The actual content of meetings held at the group's headquarters and elsewhere remains a closely guarded secret. According to CFR bylaws, it is an "express condition of membership" that members refrain from disclosing in any way what goes on at Council meetings. Any action contravening this rule "may be regarded by the Board of Directors in Its sole discretion as ground for termination or suspension of membership."

Yet, cabinet officials, members of Congress, high-ranking military officers, and other government officials repeatedly participate at CFR functions. Such "confidential" gatherings under the aegis of a private organization (especially one founded by an individual whose goal was "Socialism as dreamed of by Karl Marx") are totally inconsistent with proper conduct in a free country.

No CFR member is ever directly instructed to hold any particular view. Instead, government officials and media personalities supply important respectability for favored positions, and render varying degrees of disdain or contempt for the opposite view. Ambitious politicians, journalists, corporate executives, professors, and others dutifully follow the lead set for them—frequently without ever knowing whose attitude they are parroting. In this way, an agenda is indeed set and policies are established.

As a rule, slight variations on most topics are tolerated, even welcomed. But advocacy of any position outside carefully drawn limits earns scorn and ridicule. For example, discussion about increasing or decreasing U.S. funding for either the United Nations or a variety of foreign aid projects is tolerated, even welcomed. But anyone who calls for U.S. withdrawal from the world body, or who recommends that all foreign aid be terminated, jeopardizes his or her reputation with the nation's most prestigious power brokers.

Those who read CFR publications and study the editorial stance of CFR-controlled media organs know exactly which are the favored attitudes. The CFR and several like-minded groups can be expected to support the following: more pacts, treaties, and agreements that compromise U.S. sovereignty; continued praise for and reliance on the United Nations; piecemeal transfer of U.S. military forces to UN supervision and command; more and newer forms of foreign aid; undermining and isolation of any national leader who does not favor socialism and world government under a "new world order"; and submission to the radical demands of environmental extremists, population planners, and human rights crusaders who will never be satisfied until the United States no longer exists as a free and independent nation.

Some who follow the lead of the Establishment are undoubtedly committed to the world government and socialism advocated by Marx and the CFR's founders. But most who toe this line are self-promoters who are interested only in re-election, advancement, and recognition. They care little or nothing about the Constitution, their fellow citizens, and freedom in general.

The Shadows of Power

A thoroughly revealing history of the Council on Foreign Relations and its responsibility for America's decline is available in researcher James Perloff's superb book, The Shadows of Power. Unlike others who have sought to warn the American people about the pervasive power of the CFR, Mr. Perloff studied the organization’s publications from its inception in 1921. The evidence he supplies to support his condemnation is taken from the CFR itself. His important book concludes that the CFR is a major participant in an ongoing conspiratorial drive to use the U.S. government and the wealth of the American people to create power over mankind for a few diabolically driven individuals.

Mr. Perloff is careful to point out that only some of the CFR's members are completely committed to the sinister goals he exposes. He believes, as does the John Birch Society, that many CFR members, and many others who follow the group's lead, would readily switch their allegiance should widespread awareness be created about this powerful organization’s history and designs.

You can help to terminate CFR domination of our nation's affairs by reading and distributing The Shadows of Power. You can also participate in a nationwide effort to preserve freedom for the American people and independence for our nation by participating in the programs of the John Birch Society. Unless many more Americans become better informed and begin to take an active role in shaping our nation's affairs, the freedoms we have all taken for granted will disappear and the darkness of brutal totalitarianism will descend upon us. None of us wants an all-powerful tyrannical government dictating to each of us how we may live, what we may say, and whom we must serve. But all of that is surely on the horizon unless proper action is taken soon.

The John Birch Society

Founded in December 1958 by a group led by Robert Welch, the John Birch Society is named for Captain John Birch, the remarkable missionary-turned-soldier who served with exemplary valor during World War II and was brutally murdered by Chinese communists in 1945.

The Society has always sought to create awareness about the marvelous system of government given us by America’s founders and about the forces seeking to destroy it. Never a "political" organization backing candidates, the organization believes that an educated electorate is the key to victory. Its overall goals appear in the motto, "Less government, more responsibility, and—with God's help—a better world." Membership is open to men and women of good character and noble ideals from all races, ethnic backgrounds, and religions. You are cordially invited to investigate our work.



TOPICS: Activism/Chapters; Editorial
KEYWORDS: cfr; jamesperloff; johnfmcmanus; johnmcmanus; thenewamerican; tna
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To: Verax
If you are going to type my nic, type it correctly, or not at all. Linking one of my replies, about Joe McCarthy, as sosme kind of self refutation, is not only bizzare , but irrelivant to this topic, dear. : - )

Unlike the Communists / Socialists within FDR's government, and in cells ( sort of akin to the terrorist cells now) , There is NOT 100 % of the CFR members working to overthrough this government now. Neither are the men, who spend two weeks every summer at Bohemian Grove , plotting to take over the government ( usually the president of the USA is a member , dear ) , since many are already running it. They aren't planning on a one world government either. They are smoking cicgars in the woods, and putting on little end of the stay plays. : - )

There is NO Illuminati , except in books by Robert Anton Wilson and Larry Burkket, and in the rambling , incocherent rants of loons.

The FreeMasons also are NOT plotting the over throw of any sovereign nation, nor have they been running everything. Just because a man belongs to the Masons ( as most of our presisdents have, as most of the kings of England have as well ) does NOT mean that they have had an on going " cospiracy of rule " for centuries. Not even the 32 aqnd 33 degreed Masons ! If THAT bit of propaganda were true, then I should most assuredly know about it.

I stand utterly and cocmpcletely behind every word I have posted. That you have chosen to try to impugn me, using my own words, to suit YOUR agenda,a proves that YOU, not I, lack credibility .

Bloviate to your heart's content; it proves ONLY that you know little, but fear much about that whichc does NOT exist.

161 posted on 11/12/2001 1:23:28 AM PST by nopardons
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To: nopardons
Unlike the Communists / Socialists within FDR's government, and in cells ( sort of akin to the terrorist cells now) , There is NOT 100 % of the CFR members working to overthrough this government now.

Sorry nopardons, but your arguement is a red herring...

Communists/Socialists within - Clearly you submit that less than 100% of FDR's administration was collaborating.

So your statement There is NOT 100 % of the CFR members working to overthrough this government now. - is irrelevant.

162 posted on 11/12/2001 2:10:14 AM PST by Verax
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To: Verax
No, because not ALL of FDR's cabinet members , advisors, nor even ALL of the government workers and eleected or appointed officials were Communists / Socialists. You claim that every member of the CRF IS working against this governmenet and nation. Ergo, your grasp of simple logic / debate fails. OTOH, every member and sympathizer of the American Comumminist party WERE 100 % for instituting Communism / Socialism here. Ergo, what I said is far more rellivant, pertinant, and explictly on topic and to the point , that your feeble attempt at refutation.
163 posted on 11/12/2001 2:26:17 AM PST by nopardons
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To: nopardons
that = than
164 posted on 11/12/2001 2:28:53 AM PST by nopardons
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To: nopardons
You claim that every member of the CRF IS working against this government and nation.

- never wrote that.

165 posted on 11/12/2001 3:32:12 AM PST by Verax
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To: nopardons
When crops failed, Dark Ages Christians blamed Jews

Where do you get such bigoted anti-Christian views that some how all Christian are evil and hate and blame Jews for everything that goes wrong?

Who in the hell do you think protected and hid "the Jews" in Holland, in France and in Serbia and many other countries during World War II?
The Christians!

And when the Muslims were invading Europe it was the Christians---that you think all hated/hate Jews--- that protected them from extermination!

If you made such bigoted statements about Jews on FR you'd have to worry about being banned, but on Christians I guess you feel it's ok to say such things?

166 posted on 11/12/2001 3:55:49 AM PST by t-shirt
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To: monkeywrench; M1991; Scholastic; mbb bill; ctdonath2; Zoey; kristinn; Rebeckie; Lucky...
MW, Had to do a net search to find "So, have you been delphied", and found THIS within the thread which shows how the method works. "All of the experts agree." {"CONCENSUS"} Our leaders{?}at work{?}. I think there are others. Peace and love, George.
167 posted on 11/12/2001 3:56:09 AM PST by George Frm Br00klyn Park
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To: nopardons
Tell US about Alger Hess--the Convicted Communist spy, and Former Head of the CFR--tell US about how he was a communist.

Tell US how Alger Hess never engaged in a World-Wide Conspiracy against America--even though he was convicted of just that!

Yes good 'ol Alger the-Convicted traitor against America Hess who wrote the UN Charter. He never promoted World Government did he?

It was a shame he didn't hang like his fellow traitors the Rosenbergs! He deserved a lot more than they did!

168 posted on 11/12/2001 4:02:45 AM PST by t-shirt
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To: x
"There's more at stake here, but it's the same process, and not so much like someone is giving you orders and you are following them."

X, At least not until it gets down to the "nitty gritty" when folks are told "Our support DEPENDS on how you vote. Ask Ernest Hollings. Peace and love, George.

169 posted on 11/12/2001 4:04:59 AM PST by George Frm Br00klyn Park
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Comment #170 Removed by Moderator

To: t-shirt
Right...but at least Hiss was a Soviet spy...he was doing his job.

What's that make Rockefeller...the man who paid Hiss' bills and bought the land for the UN builing in NYC and financed the CFR building?

- I supposed he was a victim.

171 posted on 11/12/2001 4:09:33 AM PST by Verax
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To: nopardons
--maybe also there just might be other "freepers" who "know people" or who have "seen things" in meatworld that might tend to make them just a little more, umm, how to put this most delicately so as to not to induce the swooning vapors, umm, maybe *some* folks experiences with "government" or "corporate busi-ness" might make them just a tad more suspicious of events and people in high places over the years.....

Just maybe, that is, just maybe.

Maybe there are some other "freepers" who have knowledge of events that maybe are not quite, hmm, have to be delicate again, maybe some 'things" aren't exactly as reported and "commonly believed- why,everyone knows that!" and taken as gospel by some of the more debunker types who are extremely quick on the tinfoil hat slur draw.

Just maybe, that is. maybe it's possible? Maybe?

Maybe some "freepers" have noticed that if it's in the mainstream media, by various well known authors and talking heads types, that maybe over the years a lot of them are known to have, hmm, stretched the truth on events and realities? maybe? Or seemed to have whoops-"forgotten" some things, or seem to not really like to question on some topics? Certainly seems like that is an acceptable topic here, and promoted as "something to do", it's "OK", but then there's the "buts.."

On the one hand, it is "politically correct here" to slam most of the media, to perhaps name names of connected ones in office, to see some glaingly obvious past and present 'wrongness' "chinagate, whitewater, vince foster, hitlery, condidit", etc, many more, and etc, but, on the other hand, when it comes to just a few select-and very important- topics and perhaps-names that fall outside of the approved list, then all of a sudden this same media-gestalt and what is said by them, or actual events, or actual past happenings, "clues" some might call these datoids, well, then it's "obviously" just such and such, it's just 'the truth", nothing else could it be.... I mean, really..".LOL, oh my! That is just so tinfoil, hahahaha, lol! "We", just don't accept that, hehehe, "we" will inform you of what to think and believe and not believe, and what is "proper" here"... These select other topics as presented by the clique of "accepted-properness" are now mysteriously 100% true, exactly as reported on in this same media from before, never a varication. Oh, my, my , my!

Only *some* topics may be accepted as a given-true for investigative or discussion purposes, to search out past largesse, to help end decades of abuse, but others? NO, mommy says you mustn't touch.... Well! Just isn't that speeeesh-ull!"

Some topics are just not P.C if one wishes to remain "proper" and keep to their "place" inside the clique., "place" is so very important, don't you know..

har-umph, ruffle papers, harumph, tap pencil, ruffle papers, say the word "whacko" on cue, change subject, next caller please.....

Just maybe, that is....

172 posted on 11/12/2001 5:02:02 AM PST by zog
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To: George Frm Br00klyn Park
Thanks so much! I book marked it. Check out George's links, here.
173 posted on 11/12/2001 9:56:59 AM PST by monkeywrench
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To: t-shirt
If you knew history, you would know about the killings and expulsion of Jews from England , and European countries, in the Middle Ages, and not accuse me of bigotry at all. IT is historical fact. Also, I did NOT say " ALL " Christians pursicuted Jews; however , many did fear and hate them. They claimed tat they kidnapped and sacrificially murdered Christian babies and children. They didn't ! There are several such trials recorded , in Germany, and other places. You can read them, if you care to.

I am a Christian, so I am hardly guilty of being anti-Christian, and since recorded, provable FACTS is what I posted, I can likewise hardly be accused of bigottry and / or bashing anyone. When Jim bans people who type facts, just because someone either doesn't know them, or doesn't like them, then FR becomes worthless.

Nowhere did I say that SOME Christians didn't protect and hide Jews during WW2. WW2 has little to do with what England, for example, did ,or Spain in the 15yh century. Are you nw going to tell me that Sain didn't make Jews convert to Catholocism (under pain of death and torture ) kill some, and expell vast numbers of others ? Where do you think that the first Jews, who helped the USA become a nation came from , dear ?

174 posted on 11/12/2001 3:59:56 PM PST by nopardons
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Comment #175 Removed by Moderator

Comment #176 Removed by Moderator

Comment #177 Removed by Moderator

To: Black Jade
"That's the good news, and there is more. 'The Taliban do not have any links to Islam's international radicals. In fact, they hate them,' says Rubin."

cough cough................. That was Paul Rubin (PeeWee Harris) being quoted, right?

Sorry, I got it, this Rubin is a different pervert------

"says Barnett Rubin, the Afghanistan expert at the U.S.-based Council on Foreign Relations."

178 posted on 11/13/2001 3:42:49 PM PST by rdavis84
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To: Black Jade
"Not so fast, nopardons! I give you my word that this will NOT be the last time that you will see this story, if you continue to read FR. I just received a message from the "Sidebar Monitors" informing me that Post #8 "wasn't pulled. For some reason, it just doesnt show up.... May be some sort of software glitch."

NoPardons WARNED US she'd get some posts pulled if she didn't LIKE them!!! Now STOP Pointing out how effective and fair and .... well... just so doggone Democratic all this is. ;-)

179 posted on 11/13/2001 3:49:31 PM PST by rdavis84
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Comment #180 Removed by Moderator


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