TWA FLIGHT 800

You just couldn't stay away, could you Michael?

You are a funny fellow. Maybe you can try to make a living on the comedy circuit!!

Well, thanks. If I didn't have a well developed sense of humor, how could I play in this sandbox?

Some people take this debate WAY too seriously.

Oh Christ, did he show up here, too? I shouldn't call anyone here a case. Michael was a bona fide case. But you have to feel sorry for him. Manic depression is an inherited illness. Michael himself didn't do anything wrong to be that way. He got it from his parents or a parent. But sadly Michael became disoriented in his posts and ended up being kicked out of our forum. Michael did have a real skill in writing poetry and should stay away from forums.

No, he's permanently banned from FR. I was pulling your chain a little to test your sense of humor.

Commencing holiday stand down...returning to lurker mode.

That's a relief. I ran into him in LSOFT and he didn't take to receiving advice on seeing a shrink. One of my daughters has the same illness and she is in left field all of the time as well. She wants to bet me a hundred dollars every time that I advise her that she is wrong. Every once and awhile you may expect her to say something rational but like always, it is off the wall. But I still love her and try to protect her from falling for different scams but they must keep a list of those who are vulnerable and keep sending offers to them. They get bit every so often themselves when they give her a credit card. She goes ape and then they can get only pennies on a dollar. No one can take her to court since she has a perfect defense. Her car is in my name. She is on lithium and is not a danger to any one. It is only her thought process that is messed up. Have you seen the forum on Katie Curic. Someone wrote that she can now pay cash for the lobotomy that she has always wanted. Really cruel but I was no better. I mentioned that she were a quart low on hat size. I don't think that any one has said anything nice about her. It is a riot.

"A witness to the actual impact stated that the object made a hard turn, followed a zigzag course before striking the B747."

You earlier alleged that a witness saw the fiery streak trail of your alleged U.S. Navy hybrid SM-2 missile with dual mode homing missile make a sharp turn course correction just before it intercepted TWA 800 at 13,800 feet at 8:31:12. When asked to name the witness and provide the readers with the reference source URL for the report you were supposedly relying on, you couldn't do either.

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"[Richard] GOSS: (On Bell show): It was the typical look of a firework going up.... As it reached its peak, it sort of leveled out, and the strangest part was it took a sharp veer left, and it was horizontal. It moved horizontally that way. It was only a second or two later that I saw a massive explosion in the sky."

"Reconciliation [of Meyer's report] with Eyewitness Goss's report. At any rate that's really all I am here to tell you. I saw a streak of light cross the sky and initially I wasn't certain that it was a missile and I'll tell you why. In my experience in Vietnam when you saw a missile in flight it had an erratic flight path. The guidance system was always correcting.

Another strange thing - I saw something moving from my left-center to my left. I talked to a number of people whom I know in the community who said yea we saw the missile go up from the water - we saw it go up from the horizon and turn West.

Well I was looking to the South West and that meant that they saw something which would have gone from my left across going from my left to my right. And what I saw went from my left to my farther left in a right to left direction. And the two stories didn't jive - they conflicted - and I said well look I know these people - I know they are telling me the truth - we'll just preserve what we know and when we know the whole truth the pieces will fall together.

And I think they are. Because about 7 to 8 months later I met this guy, Richard Goss. Now Richard Goss had been sitting on the deck - on the front porch of a yacht club .. farther to the west of me and he had been looking out on a heading of 159 magnetic and he had seen this (points to a diagram depicting what Goss had seen). 170 magnetic - 159 true.

OK. He had seen this and when he described it to me and we talked about it and we drew it - I realized what had happened. A missile is in an erratic flight path because it is always correcting except if it is in an overshoot correct. That is, if the target is at the extreme limit of the acquisition capabilities of the missile then the missile says to itself "Whoops, the target's over there - I got to make a hard turn to catch that target". So the control surfaces on the missile go full throw and they hit stops and they stay there. And as long as they stay there and they don't chatter and they don't flutter, that missile carves a smooth arc in the sky.

When I saw Richard Goss's depiction of what he had seen I knew why I hadn't seen an erratic flight path - why the arc was smooth and I knew that what I had seen was a missile. I picked it up - you see on the top here where it curves - I picked it up just about where it starts to turn.

And what you are looking at with him is the turn is not that tight but what he looked at was at an aspect that was actually heading to the South away from him so that from his point of view the turn appears tight whereas from my point of view farther to the East it was a smoother curve."

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In short, Meyer and Goss met, compared what they had seen and they agreed that they both saw parts of the same sequence of fiery events in the sky.

Note that Goss estimated the elapsed time between the end of the fiery streak and the explosion of the Massive Fireball at only a second or two.

Meyer's meticulous elapsed time estimates included only 3-4 seconds between the end of the fiery streak and the explosion of the Massive Fireball, informally calculated to have been approximately 2000 feet in diameter, that filled the sky between about 5500-7500 feet at appropximately 8:31:47 - thirty-five seconds AFTER the 747 started coming apart at 13,800 feet.

bump

Elmer, my theory has made another turn. Something dropped away from the P3 shortly before the crash. Do you recall a retired Navy Captain Gray or something like that? He said that a missile was launched from the P3 and it collided with the B747. I now consider the possibility that the object was a supersonic Russian target drone. It should have the velocity to really mess up a B747 and should have the maneuverability that Rocky desired. Maybe the 30-kt target was not involved afterall. If it were a Russian drone we could easily understand why anyone would want to keep it a secret. At the time that this object was released from the P3, it dropped down to and appeared to level off at the altitude of the B747. Since the US was concerned about terrorists getting their hands on Russian weapons and using them on us, a strong possibility exists that a planned test could use actual Russian hardware in a test. This could be a connection with terrorism but only by intent to test the effects of terrorism rather than be the work of terrorists. I seriously feel that this scenario deserves consideration. If a drone did release this could provide an excuse for another missile to be launched and use the drone as its target since that was what the drone was designed to be used for. This could account for some to have witnessed more than one foreign object in the mix. Any bites? Also, the portion of the time line which contained the object being dropped from the P3 was messed up with 102000 or invalid data symbols in the radar record as if a desire to mask the real facts was in effect. For some members of Congress to say that TWA800 was the result of terrorism could be true in a peripheral sense. Maybe, Bill Donaldson had this in mind when pushing terrorism. It could have had the appearance of terrorism without actually being the work of terrorists if the Navy were responsible for the screw up.

"my theory has made another turn. Something dropped away from the P3 shortly before the crash. Do you recall a retired Navy Captain Gray or something like that? He said that a missile was launched from the P3 and it collided with the B747. I now consider the possibility that the object was a supersonic Russian target drone. It should have the velocity to really mess up a B747 and should have the maneuverability that Rocky desired."

Those comments dramatize the problem you've always had. You think you recall something that somebody said but you don't want to take the time to use Search features to find it so you'll know what was said and what wasn't and, if it proves to be compatible with your recollection, quote from it and provide the reference source URL so the readers can verify it themselves. Instead, you wing it and try to patch together bits and pieces of that sort of stuff into a hypothesis always lacking in specifics following which you then cavalierly allege the entire mass of mess is indisputable fact, make foul accusations at those who disagree with you and routinely rant about others cutting and pasting from the paper trail you've left in your rampaging wake until you have to admit your hypothesis is flawed and you then start the same house of cards process all over again without ever appearing to notice that you've demolished your own credibility along the way.

Take a pill Elmer. Folic acid likely. You're becoming goofy. A retired Navy Captain stated this but I am not positive about his name. I am not making this up. Are you here to counter any reasonable argument or are you only a government shill? The quote is accurate; only the name associated with it may be wrong. You're the one who has all quotes on disk. Look it up before mouthing off. Have a nice Xmas. And stop getting drunk before posting. You're bound to have an aneurysm if you keep getting so excited. At the time that the retired Navy guy said this I passed it off as his being senile but now I think not. This could explain what dropped from the P3 shortly before the crash. It could also support other missile activity that many saw. A target drone is the best candidate for something to be shot at. It gets away from the objections of sled shooting. America apparently did not have the capability that Russia had. We had lots of potential Q type of military hardware but nothing like a supersonic drone. The sled may have been along for the ride as a backup target in case the drone turned back toward the P3. But the B747 did not have flares or any other defensive weapons. There is still one clinker in that there is no reason for a drone to have RF/IR homing. Could this have been only a freak closure after the drone leveled off at the altitude of the B747? Since the P3 was headed away from the B747, the drone would have to turn back to close on the plane.

A turning back could have been the hard turn that someone observed. TWA800 was instructed to climb to 15,000 feet and the drone mission folks may have felt that the 13,700 foot elevation would have been clear of other traffic when the drone was launched. But, another confirmation comes up in that I was informed that the target was launched early. This now fits if a drone was launched before the air space was cleared. All this time, I was assuming that the sled was turned on early but now it may be inferred that the drone was launched early. There is much to this theory that needs to be checked out. My prior theory had too many objections that are now obsolete if a drone was launched early. See, Elmer, not taking the time to use logic before sounding off doesn't help our discussion, does it? You could have come to the same conclusion if you had your head rather than your fingers engaged. Have a nice holiday anyway you older old fart. This is getting closer to the real story isn't it? Is this what upsets you? Lawsuits against the military don't yield much for the litigants. Do me a favor and look up the quote since you record all posts.

Addendum: I may have the climb instruction to TWA800 partially wrong. It was originally told to climb to 19,000 feet (FL190) but this was rescinded. When told to climb later on it may have been told to climb and report when passing 15,000 feet which could have been the trigger event for the anti-terrorism test to begin. My memory is not totally clear as to whether or not TWA800 was told the second time to go to an implied 19,000 or 15,000 feet. But the net effect was that it was not yet at 15,000 feet since the target vehicle was deployed early.

"My memory is not totally clear as to whether or not TWA800 was told the second time to go to an implied 19,000 or 15,000 feet."

Imagine my surprise. Why not try the ATC Transcript?

Hey smart ass, I took what I had out of my cousin's site and can't confirm the accuracy. If you have the actual transcript, maybe you could transcribe the actual words to this forum instead of being cute. No offense of course. You go to such extremes to say so little. It amazes me how juvenile that you really are considering that you are much older than I am. What do you want to be if you grow up? NOOC

LOL!!!

"If you have the actual transcript, maybe you could transcribe the actual words to this forum".
Psst - that's a clickable link to the ATC tape transcript in my Reply.

Sorry Elmer, I missed that one. You seem to take a mundane post and turn it into so many nonsensical bells and whistles that I've learned to ignore your highlights. Maybe if you didn't go to extremes so often, I would catch when there is a need for that. I don't recall ever reading the total of any of your posts since they are so redundant. But anyhoo, thank you for your version of the ATC transcript. I can't imagine the ATC adding all of the propaganda portion that yours included. To anyone: What does expedite thru alt mean? I interpret that to mean don't lag and move on through but there appeared to be a conflict between go to and expedite in TWA800's case. Could FL150 have been the intended altitude of the terrorism test?

"Yet, not one expert witness report analyst has ever agreed with Commander Donaldson's allegations about the observations of the witnesses. Not even one."

FALSE! You Sir are the most incompetent "analyst" I've even seen! Look at this....

Having followed the link to the official report of witness 649, I found it contained a letter from a real expert witness analyst from the Suffolk County Police Department (Douglas S. Matulewich, Deputy Inspector, Commanding Officer, Marine Bureau) who was employed to determine if TWA 800 witness accounts indicate that a missile was involved. Inspector Matulewich along with an agent from the Defense Intelligence Agency triangulated several witness accounts and concluded this,

Witness Expert: "I became involved in a joint effort to determine the possibility of a missile shooting down TWA flight 800. The objective was to determine if the observations of eye witnesses could be plotted on a chart to determine a location from which a missile was shot. ... The above Latitude and Longitude locations INDICATES THE CENTER OF AN AREA THAT IS STRONGLY RECOMMENDED TO BE SEARCHED AND AT A MINIMUM A ONE (1) nautical mile area should be searched for the remains of equipment that would launch a portable missile. The possibility exists that the equipment was discarded and now remains on the ocean floor." From official NTSB report.

All caps are in the original. You can read that on page 265 of 446 of the pdf file in the first link in this reply. There it is Asmodeus, an expert inspector who reviewed the witness accounts and concluded that they are enough like missile witness accounts to justify a massive search for residual missile parts. How could Asmodeus have overlooked this detail if he is the master analyst he implies and is sufficently versed in this case to render such strong opinion? It seems that Asmodeus capitalizes on what people don't know, either that or his tin-foil hat is getting too tight.

Now get this, the expert analyst Commander Donaldson found evidence of the FBI's search that was recommended based on the expert conclusion that the witness accounts support a missile strike. If the expert analysts and the FBI believed what Asmodeus believes they would never have recommended and conducted such a massive search of the ocean. It seems that Asmodeus' beliefs expose him as the real tin-foil hatter.

I've heard via private mailings that something credible has been dredged up and placed into Naval hands possibly to be used as a Pearl Harbor file. Apparently it was small enough to be placed into a safe. It should be exposure dated to be authentic. It was interesting that it was not turned over to the FBI or NTSB, the Black Holes of investigative bodies.