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Rail: The Case for "Interstate II"
Washington (DC) Highway Transportation Fraternity | May 1999 | Gil Carmichael

Posted on 12/20/2001 8:42:55 AM PST by Publius

People identify me with railroad issues and advocacy. They forget that I came out of the highway lobby. As late as 1987 I was active in promoting a $1.6 billion, 1077-mile, 4-lane highway development program for my home state of Mississippi. During my business career I have owned five auto dealerships and an air charter service. My first involvement at the federal level was in highway safety. President Nixon named me to the National Highway Safety Advisory Committee. In 1975 President Ford appointed me to the National Transportation Policy Study Commission which was chaired by Bud Shuster. I led the subcommittee on advanced technology.

I went into this process a strong believer in highway transportation. After three years I was transformed into a believer in inter-modal transportation. Those sentiments were confirmed by my later work as Federal Railroad Administrator under President Bush, which also brought me into contact with leaders in aviation and transit. My comments reflect nearly thirty years of hands-on experience.

The Interstate Highway Program

Forty years ago America embarked upon the Interstate Highway System. We built 46,000 miles of multi-lane routes without stoplights or grade crossings. It was a grand achievement. But if you think about it, the interstate system was not designed for high-speed travel. In most states the top speed limits are only five miles an hour above those posted on the conventional numbered roadways of the 1950’s. The great benefit of the interstates was that we increased capacity by a large factor, and avoided the stoplights, traffic jams, and slow-downs that held average speeds to 50 miles an hour or less.

The interstate system had dramatic impacts upon mobility, economic growth and transportation efficiency. But its development created problems that we did not consider important at that time. Some urban areas experienced economic growth, which was spurred by their access to modern highway corridors. Others confronted more disruptive consequences. Urban interstates also became commuter routes, which fragmented downtowns and helped spread residential and commercial development to widely scattered suburbs. Many city centers were devastated, and many small towns withered as the new routes chose green-field rights-of-way.

Few people worried about air pollution in the 1950’s. In one respect our air had become cleaner because Americans of that era had switched from coal furnaces and coal-fired industrial boilers to cleaner units which used natural gas or electricity. Meanwhile, our modern highways stimulated the explosion of personal transportation by automobile, instead of public transportation by transit or rail. By the 1970’s, vehicle emissions represented the primary source of urban pollutants.

For a time, Detroit built smaller cars, but the growth in overall numbers of trucks and automobiles soon offset the pollution savings. Local governments chose to pursue industrial polluters instead of confronting the tricky problem of restricting autos and trucks. The result was to drive manufacturing out of urban counties.

Today, commuters coming to the city to work in service industries pass outbound commuters headed for factories, which have relocated to the urban fringe. City governments are losing the battle against air pollution, and have resorted to such strategies as urging residents not to run their lawn mowers on high-ozone days or avoid fueling their autos until after dark. Yet most large cities will flunk the new EPA air-quality standards.

Interstates are regarded as safer than conventional highways, but higher vehicle counts, rush-hour traffic jams, and rising driver frustration are degrading the safety performance. Highway fatalities remain at an unacceptable 40,000+ per year. We would not tolerate this situation in air or rail service.

The Problem of Congestion and "Externalities"

Only in recent years have transportation engineers and analysts begun to focus on these impacts. They commonly are referred to as "externalities" -- the costs of pollution, energy waste, land disruption, accidents and time wasted in traffic jams. These costs sometimes are hidden, but they are real. More to the point, highway user fees do not cover them. A study conducted for the American Trucking Association concluded that the trucking industry alone was responsible for $30 billion in annual costs which exceed the user fees it pays. Those costs have been transferred to the general taxpayer and to the consumer in the form of higher prices. And that's only part of the true cost of these external impacts.

Right now, our highway and airway-based passenger system is ailing. Highway and airport gridlock is getting worse, and we have found that we cannot afford to build our way out of this gridlock. Hundred-million-dollar interchanges only move traffic jams to new locations. Highway engineers now recognize in most cases that adding lanes to urban interstates won't solve the problem. Congestion is worse. Rush hour in Chicago now covers eight hours per day. Average speeds in big-city downtowns are slower than they were 100 years ago, and the true cost of operating a new automobile is in the 40-cents-a-mile range and rising. It's currently about $6,000 a year. That works out to 500 after-tax dollars per month to move you an average of 1,200 miles a month. That's pretty expensive to move your body in your car 15,000 miles a year.

Aviation's ability to expand is on a par with the problem of legroom in its passenger seats. The cabin can be reconfigured to add an inch or two, but that's about all. Load factors are at record levels. Passengers are furious over delays and overcrowding. With Herculean effort we are able to add an airport like Denver International once every 20 years. Alternatives such as VTOL aircraft have stalled out. Airport managers' visions now are limited to their existing property boundaries. A few airport commissions, like those in New Orleans and Miami, are trying to bring high-speed rail to their terminal escalators, but most airports are not.

It has become clear that we cannot solve our transportation needs of the 21st Century just by adding ever-more-costly highway lanes. This approach simply is not sustainable. When I use the term "sustainable", I intend it to mean a system that we can afford to build, and a system whose adverse impacts upon safety, land use, energy consumption and air quality are held to acceptable limits.

The Global, High-Speed Inter-modal System

As I thought about how to overcome these challenges, I was drawn to our recent experience in inter-modal transportation. What has taken place during the past 20 years is nothing short of revolutionary. Inter-modal transportation has become the global standard for moving freight -- using a system, which is sharply focused on speed, safety, reliable scheduling and economic efficiency. Today, that network emphasizes moving freight in North America and passengers in Europe and Asia. It is beginning to include passenger service in the United States.

The global high-speed inter-modal freight system builds on the strengths of each mode that have become partners in offering service. It also makes use of the versatility of the cargo container. Cargo ships and airplanes span the oceans. The freight railroad is the high-speed, long-distance transportation artery on the land. The truck provides local feeder service at origins and destinations. Cargo airplanes deliver high-value specialized freight. This system works -- but it urgently needs dramatic improvements to its land component in order to handle growing volumes of containers delivered by ship and airplane.

Modern, high-efficiency, high-capacity inter-modal terminals are key to the system, providing almost seamless interchange. Secondary rail and highway routes support the inter-modal system and connect cities, rural regions and individual freight customers to the main-line corridors. Today, a double-stack train leaving a coastal port can replace 280 trucks, run at speeds up to 90 miles an hour on the western railroads and afford as much as nine times the fuel efficiency of container transport by highway. Overall, the operational and economic efficiency of freight's inter-modal network conserves fuel, reduces other environmental impacts and is significantly safer. It represents the most economically and environmentally "sustainable" approach to transportation services.

Meanwhile, this new inter-modal science is redrawing the railroad map of North America, linking the populations and economies of the United States, Canada, and Mexico in a true "North American Rail System." Our continental network serves 90 states and provinces with 240,000 miles of routes and almost 400 million people. Most of its main lines are in excellent shape.

Over $60 billion in private funds has been spent for upgrading to heavy-duty welded rail. Another key point is this -- customers are driving the inter-modal freight network. North American customers suffer when it comes to moving people. Passengers take what the modes have to offer, shuffle between terminals, wait at the curb for the hourly bus downtown, or head for the latest addition to the airport parking garage, where we fork over above-market rates for the "privilege" of being an airline customer. Or we find ourselves at the mercy of higher rental car prices.

One could make the case that the worst defect of our passenger transportation system is the limited number of choices it offers. Residents of cities under 100,000 population often have only one practical option for inter-city travel -- the private automobile. Where bus and Amtrak service exist, the frequencies often are insufficient to meet the customer's needs. Airlines have retreated from short-haul markets. Where air service remains, the fare levels have driven people back to their automobiles.

It's Time for "Interstate II”

It seems to me that our success in freight inter-modal points the way to the most promising strategy for transportation improvements in the years ahead. I call it "Interstate II." It is a new vision of truly high-speed inter-city travel that is based upon steel, not pavement. The concept is not radical. It combines the proven efficiency of rail transportation with the strengths of the inter-modal system. Interstate II can take advantage of rights-of-way that already exist -- both rail and highways.

Interstate II already is under way. The New York-Washington Northeast Corridor has been in place since the 1970’s. [Publius note: Actually since 1910.] High-speed trains will serve Boston later this year. Turbo-trains now operate on the Empire Corridor in New York State. Washington, Oregon and British Columbia are developing a high-speed route in the Pacific Northwest. Eight years ago Congress authorized five new high-speed rail corridors. Today, with the TEA-21 Act, thirteen have been approved for development. When Congress voted $2.3 billion in capital funds for Amtrak, it sent a message that inter-city rail passenger service is here to stay. It is interesting to note that Amtrak's package express business is booming, because express companies cannot expand if they are limited to clogged highways. Interstate II will attract mail and package express business away from highways and airways, adding to the new system's revenues, and helping to share the increased traffic loads that the other modes confront.

The evolution of Interstate II reminds me of the conditions that prevailed during the decade prior to our construction of the first interstate routes. The old two-lane roads were not adequate for traffic volumes. Several states took the lead in building toll roads -- Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Kansas and Oklahoma. Important segments of "Interstate I" already were in operation before Congress voted to launch that project.

The same thing is happening in the 1990’s. These state and regional initiatives represent the beginning of a network of high-speed rail lines. Many of them will parallel interstate highways. During the first quarter of the 21st Century, I believe that we can build about 20,000 miles of corridors capable of running trains at 90 to 150 miles per hour. As much as another 10,000 miles of high-quality conventional rail routings will augment that network.

Often, we will be able to use the same right of way that freight railroad now occupy, if we deal with a number of key issues, including grade separation and liability. An important element of Interstate II is the requirement to eliminate at-grade highway-rail crossings. Many of them can be closed, because they are unnecessary. Others will require separation. The remainder can be fitted with high-tech crossing devices. We cannot have efficient rail corridors, conventional or high-speed, if trains encounter grade crossings every mile in the country and every block in town. Some people will shy away from the crossing-closure issue as too controversial. But think back to the 1950’s. We closed tens of thousands of road intersections when the Interstate highways were built.

For Interstate II to function properly, we also must create terminals to transfer passengers and freight among modes and routes. Fast, modern and highly efficient inter-modal terminals and yards are essential to freight's inter-modal system, providing "seamless" service. Get off an airplane at Dulles or Denver airports and you are reminded that seamless service hasn’t arrived. The seams are ripped apart just on the other side of the baggage claim.

Another important element of Interstate II will be the city center terminal. The city center terminal serves the inter-modal passenger network. It also serves cities both large and small and helps to revitalize the downtown. These facilities should be developed by local governments, just as they built and financed airports. City center terminals can be hubs for people and retailing. In larger cities they can provide a financial contribution to the overall corridor development project.

Amtrak will have a key role in the inter-city passenger component of Interstate II. But we need to start thinking about Amtrak in a more realistic context. Amtrak should be in the business of moving people inter-modally, in partnership with inter-city bus companies and local transit, but not owning track or terminals. Amtrak should operate and be treated like an airline. Airlines don't build airports. They don't carry those debt costs on their books. If airlines had been compelled to finance airports, they would not have had the capability to undertake the remarkable expansion of fleets and service that has occurred during the past forty years. What's fair for airlines ought to be fair for Amtrak, which today is burdened with aging station facilities that in many cases are an embarrassment, which discourages use.

Interstate II is Affordable

I also favor Interstate II because it represents the option we can afford.

For the equivalent of two cents on the motor fuel tax, one penny at the federal level and a second penny from the states, America could have within twenty years' time a network of high-speed rail corridors that approaches the scale of the Interstate Highway system. That commitment of fuel tax dollars would offer a powerful incentive to additional private investment as well. States and cities should be partners in the process, bringing additional revenues to the table. Again, we are talking about the equivalent of one cent on each state's motor fuel tax. Some people will argue that motor fuel taxes should only go to highway projects. But highway construction is not solving the gridlock problem. More important, the existing level of highway user fees doesn't even come close to covering the costs that highway transportation now inflicts upon our economy and society. More to the point, it is not building the system we need, one that captures the safety and capacity of the 21st Century inter-modal passenger and freight network. Cities, towns, counties and citizens already are paying for that funding gap in many indirect ways. Law enforcement costs. Emergency services costs. Land lost to highway rights-of-way that goes off the tax rolls. Pollution rules that drive industrial jobs out of urban counties despite the fact that most of the emissions are highway-related.

Aside from the obvious benefits from Interstate II, I favor it because there are no alternatives. If trends of the 1980’s and 1990’s persist into the new century -- and there is no reason to believe that they will not -- conventional solutions based upon individual modes simply cannot cope with the growth. Does anyone here seriously believe that we can double the capacity of our urban highway system within the next 15 years? The price tag for just a 10 percent increase would be staggering. And does anyone think that we will add eight or nine airports on the scale of Denver International? I would be surprised if we completed even one of them.

We are long overdue in coming to grips with the huge costs of trying to make the highways and airways solve all of our transportation needs, especially since there are efficient alternatives. It is our job to convince the American people and their opinion leaders that Interstate II is possible and is the obvious solution to our mobility needs for a new century. Rail corridors will prove to be cheaper than hundred-million-dollar interchanges that only relocate traffic jams. They will be safer than 43,000 deaths per year on America’s roadways.

This new ethical inter-modal transportation system will conserve fuel, reduce pollution and be less disruptive in using land. And just as America's toll roads used private money to finance construction, Interstate II can attract major private investment cost sharing. Private money can be applied to construction, operations, station development and equipment -- especially modern passenger, mail-and-express train-sets.

How many times have you heard people ask, "Why can't we have trains like those in Europe?" The answer is, We can. It's a question of priorities, strategy, partnerships, leadership and policy. We need to explain to the people of America that they can have a customer-driven passenger system. They can have choice within that system, and it doesn't have to cost 40 cents a mile to get anywhere. Americans also can obtain an even more efficient, low-cost freight and express network that will reap even more benefits through its inter-modal design. Americans can have interstates of steel for less cost than interstates of concrete and asphalt. And Interstate II will provide plenty of work for the traditional highway-builders.

Building this very safe, 20,000-mile, grade-separated, high-speed inter-city rail network is the key to the quality of transportation services during the next century. The money is there to do the job. The "road gang's" next goal should be to build it. It is up to you. I believe that the concept makes sense. I hope that you will agree.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Editorial
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To: tex-oma
Before we invested Billions of dollars in the Eisenhower Interstate Highway System, one could have made a similar argument about cars.
21 posted on 12/20/2001 9:21:16 AM PST by cicero's_son
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To: Publius
I've read both the articles. In this one, the author mentions a very small cost to build the infrastructure, and if it indeed costs this little, I have no problem with it. But I do have to agree with Phantom Lord's comments that people just aren't going to take it unless you have a high density urban corridor to take it to. BART, in the SF Bay Area is effective because it feeds into high density and relatively compact downtown SF, and to a lesser extent, downtown Oakland.

The Interstate II proposal looks like something that would want to alleviate the problem not off commuting, but of short hop travels. The problem is getting these stations into the downtowns of major metro areas. A simple subway in SF to the Transbay Terminal would double the budget of any project like this due to the cost of real estate. I'm sure it would have similar effects in other metro areas. The grade separations would also create problems as city centers are already broken up by the city, and as we learned when we built the interstate highways, the people who were displaced because of construction were the people who literally had no place to go.

For something like this be effective, it needs to be done in a few prime corridors to prove it can be successful. For instance a highspeed line connecting Vegas and LA. Once people see it can work, people will use it. Building a nationwide system that is unproven in American terms would truly be a boondoogle.

22 posted on 12/20/2001 9:23:08 AM PST by GoreIsLove
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To: Publius
I'd love to see an increase in rail use of all forms. I don't think this country wants to be that efficient though. I've read that there are a million truck drivers in this country and I think we prefer the gross inefficiency of paying all of them and pumping diesel into all of those inefficient trucks. That's a lot of jobs and a big part of the economy that I think politicians are afraid to touch.
23 posted on 12/20/2001 9:23:11 AM PST by biblewonk
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To: tex-oma
For that matter, before the Defense Dep't invested money in developing the Internet, people would have said "thanks--we're doing just fine with copper wire telephones."

I realize I'll never persuade you, but I believe the balance of our history shows that public spending can--on occasion--spur innovation and growth.

24 posted on 12/20/2001 9:23:40 AM PST by cicero's_son
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To: Publius
But if you were to shut down TTA and require those bus riders to drive, you'd have major congestion, maybe even gridlock.

No one is suggesting shutting down the trains. But if you are getting less than 9 riders per bus and some busses are running EMPTY all day, where is the demand for MORE public transportation? Answer... THERE ISNT ANY!

You don't know anything about Raleigh, but I do, and I will tell you without hesitation, any train system here is going to be a boondoggle.

One of their proposals is to also ad a train to go from Raleigh to Wilmington (the beach). Going to cost MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars, going to take an hour LONGER than by car and, using their own numbers, average 13 riders a day! 13! Boy, where do i hand over my money for that great investment.

The situation here is not good for rail of any kind. There are NO large buildings, NO large condos, NO large appartments, NO density, NO localized anything or centrally located anything. And they dont even want it to go to the airport!

Lets use my neighbor as an example. He lives in Apex NC. He works for Cisco in RTP. Probably 20 miles door to door. Ok, nearest planned train station is 10 miles from our house in the WRONG direction. So, he drives 10 miles to the station. Leaves his car and gets on the train. Train goes approx 30 miles and drops him off at Cisco. Now is where the fun starts. Ciscos campus is over 10,000 acres! 10,000! Now, once he gets off the train how does he get to his office? does the city provide transportation to his office? Or does Cisco provide it, increasing the cost of business and reducing an already decimated Cisco workforce in the area?

Or how about IBM with over 20,000 acres!

You might ask, well, those are extreme cases. But they arent. Especially since the whole purpose of the rail system being planned is to get people into RTP where Cisco and IBM are. Along with 100's of other companies. And each one is like their own little city. Its not like in NYC where you walk out of your home and 2 blocks to the train, take the train and get off and have 2 blocks to work. Not like that around here. It is a boondoggle and they are going to rob us blind.

Its going to be like The Simpsons "monorail" episode.

25 posted on 12/20/2001 9:23:57 AM PST by Phantom Lord
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To: Publius
Small cities and suburbs need rail to get people into the big cities. That's what commuter rail is for.

I forgot to comment on this part. There is no BIG city to get people from the burbs into. While Raleigh is the "big city" compared to the suburbs, most poeple who live in the suburbs do not work in raleigh, and I would venture to say that most people who live in raleigh dont even work in raleigh. This place is no good for rail but the lefty enviro wackos in the area want it and they are in power so it seems they are gonna rob us blind. While we will be able to say "we told you so" they will never admit their failure.

26 posted on 12/20/2001 9:26:29 AM PST by Phantom Lord
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To: Publius
Lets take a look at ALL fees associated with cars, not just gas taxes. And one reason that gas taxes have failed to fully pay for roads is because they are diverted to the general budget and spent on everything in site and not dedicated to their original purpose for which they were instituted.
27 posted on 12/20/2001 9:28:02 AM PST by Phantom Lord
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To: biblewonk
I'd love to see an increase in rail use of all forms.

All right, 'fess up! How much rail stock do you own, Thurston?

28 posted on 12/20/2001 9:28:17 AM PST by newgeezer
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To: Phantom Lord
Small cities and suburbs do NOT need trains of any shape or form.

I live in a "bedroom community" about 30 miles from Indianapolis. Of the 40,000 or so people who live here, it's estimated that about 10% of them work in Indianapolis and probably most of them drive to work alone or with one other person.

So do we need light rail? No, we don't need it, but what makes more sense -- 3000 automobiles or, say, 50 train cars? Anyone who drives that route on a daily basis -- including my wife -- would tell you in the most graphic terms imaginable just how badly some alternative is needed.

29 posted on 12/20/2001 9:29:53 AM PST by Black Cat
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To: cicero's_son
I think the difference though was that we had a federal road system in place before the Eisenhower Act built during (I think) the Hoover Administration (those are the US routes like 1 on the east coast and 101 on the west) that was becoming highly congested. Eisenhower saw the autobahns in Germany during WW2 and thought they'd do good in the US.
30 posted on 12/20/2001 9:30:33 AM PST by GoreIsLove
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To: delapaz
Let me explain how things work here in Washington state.

Think of 3 concentric circles of highway funding.

The first concentric circle is the gas tax. Here in Washington, the 18th Amendment to the state constitution requires that it be spent on roads. In 1967, the state supreme court added ferries to the mix because state ferries carry numbered state highways over large bodies of water, like Puget Sound. (It's like a moving bridge.) But that's it. Not a penny for bike paths, the state rail program, port improvements or transit support. It's 100% for highways and ferries.

The second concentric circle consists of other car-related taxes, like the hated Motor Vehicle Excise Tax (MVET). These can be used for anything in the Washington State Department of Transportation's budget, including the forbidden items I mentioned above. But about 95% goes for highways.

The third concentric circle is the general fund, which in Washington consists of sales taxes, business & occupation taxes, and the state cut of property taxes. This may be used for anything anywhere in the state's overall budget, but about 90% of the transportation component goes to highways.

When the voters cut the hated MVET down to a flat $30 per vehicle, the second concentric circle contracted. To continue building highways -- we're 20 years behind schedule -- we either need to increase the first (gas tax) or third (general fund) concentric circles. Realizing that the "road gang" was going to attempt a grab of the general fund, the teacher's union successfully passed an initiative via the voters that permits them to insert a vacuum hose of a fixed diameter into the general fund for perpetuity. So now we're fighting over the first concentric circle.

In some states and at the federal level, the first concentric circle is not highways-only, but more generally related to transportation needs. But the funding scheme is pretty much the same everywhere.

31 posted on 12/20/2001 9:31:45 AM PST by Publius
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To: biblewonk
Everything you buy got to where you bought it by truck. Build all the rail you want, but eventually every product you purchase still got to the store in a truck.
32 posted on 12/20/2001 9:32:17 AM PST by Phantom Lord
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To: Publius
I wouldn't mind telecommuting, but my boss likes to keep an eye on me.

Telecommuting could save dozens of hours wasted in commuting, while saving wear and tear on the transportation infrastructure. It's time the boss be persuaded (perhaps financially, with considerable tax breaks) to see things in a new light.

33 posted on 12/20/2001 9:32:38 AM PST by B Knotts
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To: Phantom Lord
Again, you are wrong. Please see post #31.
34 posted on 12/20/2001 9:34:55 AM PST by Publius
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To: Phantom Lord
Everything you buy got to where you bought it by truck. Build all the rail you want, but eventually every product you purchase still got to the store in a truck.

Not my electricity, nor the raw corn syrup in my pepsi, nor the steak in my bicycle, nor the coal used to process it, nor everything else hauled by rail. Only most final products get to stores by truck but if most of the steps in the process were on rail, your point becomes kind of meaningless doesn't it.

35 posted on 12/20/2001 9:35:12 AM PST by biblewonk
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To: Black Cat
Anyone who drives that route on a daily basis -- including my wife -- would tell you in the most graphic terms imaginable just how badly some alternative is needed.

Bad enough that you and them would be willing to pay FULL FARE to cover its expenses and not be supported by the tax payers?

How would you get from your home to the train station? How would you get from the train station to your office and back?

36 posted on 12/20/2001 9:35:38 AM PST by Phantom Lord
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To: Publius
Amtrak will have a key role in the inter-city passenger component of Interstate II.

If so, the project is DOOMED.

37 posted on 12/20/2001 9:36:24 AM PST by 1Old Pro
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To: GoreIsLove
The problem is getting these stations into the downtowns of major metro areas.

But these stations have been in the major city downtowns for over a century. The CalTrain terminal (formerly SP) at 4th & Townsend is an example. So is the Oakland depot at Jack London Square.

38 posted on 12/20/2001 9:36:38 AM PST by Publius
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To: GoreIsLove
I think the difference though was that we had a federal road system in place before the Eisenhower Act built during (I think) the Hoover Administration (those are the US routes like 1 on the east coast and 101 on the west) that was becoming highly congested.

It was the Federal Agricultural Highway Act, signed in 1925 by President Coolidge.

39 posted on 12/20/2001 9:38:24 AM PST by Publius
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To: Publius
This entire article lies and lies by omission in practically every paragraph about past interstate highway development, the causes of urban pollution, and (easily fact checkable) history.

The discussion of costs is totally absurb; suburban right-of-ways, urban comdemnations, union contracting and workers, and the supporting infrastructures for subsidiary transportation, cargo-moving, and people-handling would be enormous, disruptive, expensive, and never-ending.

Like the current Amtrak white elephant, it would go nowhere; almost no one would use it by choice; it would be plagued by management malfeasance, union "efficiency", rampant corruption in all phases of construction and operation, endless taxpayer subsidies for cost-overruns and more mindless government propaganda to support it.

The 1880's are never coming back - get used to it.
40 posted on 12/20/2001 9:39:08 AM PST by balrog666
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