New program driven at developing hydrogen fuel cells

AP ^ | 1/9/2002 | Ed Garsten

[Down South P.E.]

So that is why ALL the auto makers are spending tens of millions of dollars to develop fuel cell cars?? Don't make me laugh!!

Oh yeah, I forgot to ask. Where are all those expensive Electric Vehicles that tens of millions were spent on by the car manufacturers? Answer:

Like I said : "People will not buy an expensive toy that doesn't give them equivalent performance to what they have now. Which major car manufacturer is going to stick their neck out in mass production first while you have your good ole reliable combustible engine in your car in the yard."

[Cvengr]

I admit I find the hydrogen based plans more lucrative than solar or wind powered programs.

[John Jamieson]

Cool, but only a small piece of the total solution. Might be a great way to store hydrogen.....certainly a needed piece of the puzzel. IC engines can burn H2 with water injection to reduce NOX.

[Billy_bob_bob]

If you dig deeper into their web site you will find some diagrams for proposed powerplant designs, that could supposedly be used for automobiles. Anyway, glad you found it interesting. Dig a bit deeper into their site, I think you'll find it worth your time.

[John Jamieson]

That was certainly my first view too.

But if W actually has a long term plan to switch to nuclear/hydrogen economy....I think it's brillant.

[Down South P.E.]

I still have a very fond place in my heart for simple component availability on a mass market.

I agree - a key point in my thesis.

I recognize the concerns for safety in design, but I also recognize many parties are out there who seek to intrude upon everybody else's liberties simply to exert their authority and will in making things 'safe'.

This is true to. And don't forget about your attornies and many stupid (but not all) law suits. A balance must be struck. Lots of your industry standards such as ANSI are developed by people in the business of manufacturing their particular products and are valuable. Though unfortunately I admit politics and power hunger are still a part (as it will always be with humans).

I applaud the idea of fuel cells. I just don't find they outperform when convoluted with those other functions in a utilitarian fashion.

I think we are reading from the same page.

[PeaceBeWithYou]

The socialist keep telling us we're running out of oil, but it just ain't true. They just want to bankrupt capitalism, so they can take charge. We find more reserves every year and keep finding more all the time. We find new ways to get more out of the ground, and use less thru conservation too.

More and more geologist now think that the earth is continual production of oil and we haven't even scratched the surface yet.

Look it up, there have always been an increasing amount of reserves over previous years, and the projected shortage is always a few years ahead, and based on zero new discovery.

Read this

[Wonder Warthog]

"You obviously know a lot about this subject. I have a question; in your opinion, is there any liquid based fuel that is commonly available, could be pumped through the existing gasoline delivery infrastructure, and be used in some version of fuel cells? Is ethanol a possibility here?"

See methanol. Do a Google search on "direct methanol fuel cell".

[bimbo]

Fuel-cell EV's will leapfrog that problem. I fully expect to see fuel-cell cars on the road in less than 10 years. Fuel-cell BUSES are already there.

Absolutely! I watch the fuel cell companies closely - their stocks do very well when the the price of oil approaches $30 / bl. I suspect that the greatest impetus for these vehicles will be the cost of oil if /when it rises sufficiently.

[historian1944]

Can't coal be easily, cheaply, and cleanly converted into methanol (I remember hearing about it, just don't remember which -anol it converted into). From what I read, it appeared to be easy to convert a gasoline engine into a methanol engine, which would burn cleaner than gasoline. And then, as your link showed, it can also be used in a fuel cell, then we have the best of all worlds: burn it if you wish, use it in a fuel cell if you wish. Everyone smiling!

[Wonder Warthog]

"Can't coal be easily, cheaply, and cleanly converted into methanol (I remember hearing about it, just don't remember which -anol it converted into)."

Yes (and it is methanol that is the easiest/most direct/cheapest final product--although with enough chemistry, you can also convert the coal to gasoline--as the Germans did in WWII). Virtually ANY source of carbonaceous material (garbage, agricultural waste, natural gas, coal, etc. etc.) can be pretty easily converted to methanol.

"From what I read, it appeared to be easy to convert a gasoline engine into a methanol engine, which would burn cleaner than gasoline. And then, as your link showed, it can also be used in a fuel cell, then we have the best of all worlds: burn it if you wish, use it in a fuel cell if you wish. Everyone smiling!"

Indeed. Another advantage of methanol is that it can use the existing gasoline distribution infrastructure (pipelines, tank trucks, and gas stations) with minimal modification.

[mrsmith]

” The Bush administration launched a partnership today with domestic automakers to spur the growth of hydrogen fuel cells for the next generation of cars and trucks,...”

And 18 years later that taxpayer money has produced... nothing.