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6 Shot at Grundy, VA school

Posted on 01/16/2002 10:37:35 AM PST by Hillary's Lovely Legs

6 Shot at a Grundy, Virgina School. Details to follow after the Ashcroft press conference


TOPICS: Breaking News; Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: banglist
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To: TankerKC
What balderdash to blame JFK's death on George Bush. Remember,he's not a Clinton. Geesh.
301 posted on 01/16/2002 12:45:42 PM PST by Marysecretary
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To: Myrddin
You are correct. The Glock does not have a hammer/firing pin combination.

It has a "Striker." The Striker acts like a firing pin but is propelled by it own spring system. No hammer hits it. Nothing hits it.

The Striker is partially spring loaded by the recoil action moving the slide. It is not spring loaded enough to fire a round. The trigger pull action pulls the striker back enough to fire the round.

In order to dry fire a Glock you have to pull the slide back a bit to pre-load the striker. You have to do this every time the striker is released when dry firing. In a DAO gun, the trigger squeeze does it all. There is no need to pull the slide back a bit or at all.

The Glock DAO debate has gone of for years. It seems that very few people who comment on the Glock Trigger Mechanisms know what they are talking about. It seems that you are one who does know.

302 posted on 01/16/2002 12:46:58 PM PST by Jeff Gordon
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To: John H K
"Knowing FR I know people are absolutely DESPERATELY hoping this guy is a Muslim so they can go off on their wacky tirades..."

So...what's the buzz over at the RAT Underground, Lefty?!

MUD

303 posted on 01/16/2002 12:47:55 PM PST by Mudboy Slim
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To: Hillary's Lovely Legs
The shooting happened after the posting of some grades.

Is this why Harvard professor of African-American studies Cornel West gives only A and A- grades?

304 posted on 01/16/2002 12:49:00 PM PST by DoctorHydrocal
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To: Bella
Is it LEGAL for these foreigners on student visas to purchase guns in the US?
305 posted on 01/16/2002 12:49:53 PM PST by GailA
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Comment #306 Removed by Moderator

To: Ward Smythe
Neighbor! I grew up in the New River Valley. Am in Richmond now.
I spent most of my youth in Red Ash (near Richlands) and Marvin (near Oakwood), wide places in the road. :)
307 posted on 01/16/2002 12:53:22 PM PST by Quicksilver
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To: Mudboy Slim
msmihai (126 posts) Click to EMail msmihai Click to send private message to msmihai Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jan-16-02, 04:21 PM (ET)
"Executed VA law school dean was DNC member, Clinton supporter"
Link:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55705-2002Jan16.html

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  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 bad link khephra Jan-16-02 1
Worked for me. beware_of_god 01/16/2002 3
 link worked for me SCantiGOP Jan-16-02 2
 This is so sad Tigerlily Jan-16-02 4
 Far right domestic terrorism kainah Jan-16-02 5
 You mean Nakedmonkey Jan-16-02 6

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khephra Donating Member (10460 posts) Click to EMail khephra Click to send private message to khephra Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jan-16-02, 04:23 PM (ET)
1. "bad link"
LAST EDITED ON Jan-16-02 AT 04:28 PM (ET)


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beware_of_god (480 posts) Click to EMail beware_of_god Click to send private message to beware_of_god Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jan-16-02, 04:28 PM (ET)
Reply to post #1
3. "Worked for me. "
The point is tinfoil (for now).

I think the suggestion is that there is a campaign to terrorize liberals or any enemy of the GOP.

RNC already announced in FL last year their strategy of discrediting Black leadership. In this context, one wonders of the OJ trial was payback for Jesse Owens. We now see rampant coruption in DNA analysis used in court, and Fuhrman sure became friends with Lucianne pretty quickly.

911? Blue state

Electricity Crisis? Blue state

He's not MY dictator!

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SCantiGOP Donating Member (239 posts) Click to EMail SCantiGOP Click to send private message to SCantiGOP Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jan-16-02, 04:26 PM (ET)
2. "link worked for me"
tragic story. now let's listen to the braindead NRA types explain this away.

Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel

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Tigerlily Donating Member (1971 posts) Click to EMail Tigerlily Click to send private message to Tigerlily Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jan-16-02, 04:31 PM (ET)
4. "This is so sad"
And is also becoming extremely frightening.
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kainah Donating Member (1400 posts) Click to EMail kainah Click to send private message to kainah Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jan-16-02, 04:39 PM (ET)
5. "Far right domestic terrorism"
All the signs are there. Grundy is right near the border of VA, WV and KY. The far right terrorists in this country love border regions because they can quickly escape into adjacent jurisdictions. The targets were standard for the far right -- elites (Harvard grads, law professors, liberals) engaged in promoting law for the noncontributing poor. Faculty included people from Howard University, so presumably it was fairly integrated. And they were talking about getting lawyers into the coal fields -- unions. All the hallmarks are there. This is the far right.

I'm so convinced of this. I am posting same message to the threads on this. Sorry if I'm beating you over the head with it.

You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake. -- Jeannette Rankin
War is God's way of teaching Americans geography. -- Ambrose Bierce

The Mourning Bow Campaign

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Nakedmonkey (524 posts) Click to EMail Nakedmonkey Click to send private message to Nakedmonkey Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jan-16-02, 04:44 PM (ET)
6. "You mean"

it's not gang related?

Oh wait, young minorities weren't involved, nevermind

"mmmm sacralicious" -Homer Simpson

"Look, I have a brain; I just took it out so it wouldn't get wet." -Meatwad

"Drilling for oil in alaska will reduce harmful emissions." -W.

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308 posted on 01/16/2002 12:54:31 PM PST by VRWC_minion
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To: VRWC_minion
Memo to the "people" at DU. Put down your crack pipe. Now slowly step away from it, never to return. Just say no to drugs, especially the cheap ones you obviously used.
309 posted on 01/16/2002 12:58:46 PM PST by Hillarys Gate Cult
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To: Hillary's Lovely Legs; all
I've observed a pattern that continues here. Liberals create cess pools wherever they live, then run to conservative areas of the country so that they can find the peace they've destroyed where they came from -- only to lay ground for more chaos. Curious to know where the money came from to create this new law school.
310 posted on 01/16/2002 1:00:01 PM PST by EverOnward
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To: scottiewottie
Good call. "Peter" is not your common variety Islamic name.

OTOH, Peter is a common variety British name, and Nigeria was a British colony. It is quite possible that his name comes from that sort of consideration.

Or, "Peter" is simply his Americanized name.

Personally, I think it's got nothing to do with him being Islamic or Christian.

311 posted on 01/16/2002 1:00:49 PM PST by r9etb
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To: Mudboy Slim
Agreed. I hope the perp who killed these people today won't be one of the "let off" ones......

Re: What will Clinton do since the Dean of the law school helped with the CLinton/Gore election fraud fiasco??? (and maybe then got sick of what he was involved in and had to get far far away......????) - He will attend the funeral and pay the poor man's widow some money under the counter. ......

I am not serious......who knows......but it IS wierd - the Dean's connection to Clinton. I am sorry - but it is!

312 posted on 01/16/2002 1:03:12 PM PST by Freedom'sWorthIt
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To: 1Old Pro
Aren't most handguns semiautomatic Many are revolvers. Although AFAIK, no revolvers are chambered for .380 as opposed to .38 Special which is a misnomer since .38 Special (and it's offspring the .357) is really .357 caliber.
313 posted on 01/16/2002 1:03:27 PM PST by El Gato
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To: VRWC_minion
it's not gang related? Oh wait, young minorities weren't involved, nevermind

LOL! Well, the shooter (while relatively young) isn't a minority in Nigeria, anyway.

314 posted on 01/16/2002 1:04:58 PM PST by r9etb
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To: Hillary's Lovely Legs
Appalachian Law School. Meeting Virginia's screaming lack of law schools (/sarcasm - for those unfamiliar with Virginia - the state has a lot of solid law schools). Still, let a thousand flowers bloom. I can't fault someone setting up a new opportunity for education. However...

This recently set-up law school -- that probably few people outside Grundy VA heard of before today -- http://www.asl.edu -- with the intriguing statement on its website that it has no street address (check for yourself) may be a "proprietary school" (see article below, which gives some background, though is overly restricted to the community college paradigm). Many "non-traditional degree sources" are proprietary schools. Well, so what?

Proprietary schools have an owner and are designed to make money. Again, so what? Isn't this a good thing?

It might be, except for two things: most of them make their money directly from Federal aid checks (see below for percentage of students getting aid; they are basically living off DoE grants) and (the biggie post 9-11) they recruit very heavily overseas, trading on their ability to underwrite student visas, and providing a little-scrutinized backdoor for a lot of foreigners to get student visas - not that the front door is scrutinized that well either. THE FLIGHT SCHOOLS THAT THE 9-11 TERRORISTS TRAINED ON WERE ALL PROPRIETARY SCHOOLS. Note that at least some of them are also Middle-Eastern owned!

This was a tragedy which may have accidentally highlighted a broader issue in the whole student-visa problem. A further question would be how many foreign student visas is ASL sponsoring out of the 170 students they have.

http://www.ed.gov/databases/ERIC_Digests/ed400003.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------

ERIC Identifier: ED400003

Publication Date: 1996-09-00

Author: Lee, Lucy

Source: ERIC Clearinghouse for Community Colleges Los Angeles CA.

Community Colleges and Proprietary Schools. ERIC Digest.

THIS DIGEST WAS CREATED BY ERIC, THE EDUCATIONAL RESOURCES INFORMATION CENTER. FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT ERIC, CONTACT ACCESS ERIC 1-800-LET-ERIC

Should publicly supported community colleges and proprietary schools (including most for-profit vocational schools as well as two-year "career colleges") try to better understand one another? Some educators argue that policy and practice should emphasize the areas in which they are alike. Others contend that significant distinctions remain between the two types of postsecondary institutions. This digest presents a discussion of some of the inherent advantages and disadvantages in encouraging greater mission convergence between community colleges and proprietary schools.

Clowes describes proprietary schools as the "silent partners" in higher education--while little has been written about them, they enroll 6.1% of all postsecondary education students who are awarded a large share of federal grants and loans. These students have also been disproportionately responsible for loan defaults. Critics of today's proprietary schools echo many of the early concerns about the financial aid and fundraising practices historically associated with for-profit trade schools.

HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE ON PROPRIETARY SCHOOLS

Proprietary institutions have a long history of attracting controversy while at the same time filling a need in their communities. The 17th-century precursors of today's proprietary schools advertised to attract students to vocational programs that promised quick preparation and transition to work. For 200 years, their descendants operated independent of other forms of education in the United States. At the turn of the 20th century, however, the Progressive Era led to a focus on public education, accompanied by governmental reforms in education and the first efforts to regulate the private vocational schools.

Veterans enrolled in proprietary schools in record numbers after World War II, thanks to federal subsidies available on the G. I. Bill. Engaged in ever-more-aggressive advertising for students, the schools were accused of making educational goals subordinate to the bottom line. Scandals surrounding fraudulent accounting practices with regard to student aid in the 1950s served to further tarnish the reputation of the for-profit sector (Honick). The rivalry between community colleges and proprietary schools surged with the post World War II boom in college attendance. Existing public institutions expanded their facilities, new campuses sprouted all over the country, and enrollments increased dramatically. As they faced new pressures to compete for students and financial aid, proprietary institutions were also increasingly targeted for criticism. During the last 50 years, efforts to coordinate oversight responsibility for the proprietary sector among the state higher education agencies, accrediting bodies, and the federal government have fallen short. Confusion remains about such fundamental issues as arriving at a common definition of the proprietary or "career" colleges (Chaloux). For example, as recently as 1994, the Carnegie Foundation's "A Classification of Institutions of Higher Education" combined "community, junior, and technical colleges (including proprietary schools)" into one category called "Associate of Arts Colleges."

CURRICULUM, STUDENTS, AND GOVERNANCE: SOME COMPARISONS

Those who argue for mission convergence perceive increasing similarities in curricular offerings at proprietary schools and community colleges. The historic function of the proprietary school has shifted away from an exclusive emphasis on preparing students for post-graduate employment, toward offering courses that also emphasize general competencies. Community colleges, in their turn, have initiated curricular changes in response to students who are more interested in career preparation than traditional degrees (Hyslop and Parsons).

Student populations at both community colleges and proprietary schools are among the most diverse in the nation. Literature on the interaction of race, socioeconomic status (SES), and academic background of proprietary school versus community college students is contradictory. Referring to data from the National Center for Education Statistics (NCES), Cheng and Levin report that women and white students are somewhat more likely to enroll in career college than community college programs. Also, as parental income and education increase, so does the likelihood of attending a college or university rather than a propriety school or career college. Their study reveals that students attending proprietary schools appear to have lower degree aspirations but better success in actually attaining the license, certificate, or two-year degree they set out to pursue than do students with similar limited aspirations enrolled at community colleges. Nonetheless, evidence suggests that proprietary school students are far less likely to move on to baccalaureate study; the NCES data indicate that differences in the academic preparation and aptitude of proprietary students are factors. Prager also expresses concern that there are no guarantees that earned credit at a career college will be accepted by a community or senior college, a practice which might also inhibit transfer.

Some of the most fundamental differences between the two types of institutions exist in governance. Obviously, the distinction of public versus private status remains significant. Nonetheless, events such as the G.I. Bill, amendments to the Higher Education Act of 1972 and 1992, changes in accreditation and standards, and fluctuations in the economy have prompted proprietary schools and community colleges to take on areas previously considered the exclusive domain of one or the other (Hittman).

FINANCING AND GOVERNMENT OVERSIGHT

The not-for-profit, degree-granting schools have typically applied for regional accreditation, while for-profit, degree-granting schools have usually sought sanction by national accreditation associations. Prager holds that accreditation processes, though they vary across the different regional and national associations, now generally require that proprietary schools meet the same or similar standards as community colleges, while Chaloux says that evaluative criteria have differed for degree-granting and non-degree-granting institutions. Accreditation for degree-granting institutions has focused primarily on quality of the education, while that for the non-degree-granting has focused on employability of graduates.

Prager also notes that while accrediting standards merit further study with regard to all types of institutions, significant questions remain about policies regarding proprietary accreditation and its acceptance by other postsecondary institutions. She asks if accountability and outcome measures can be used to insure that greater numbers of students are admitted to and succeed in baccalaureate programs, regardless of where they begin their postsecondary training. Is loss of credit for proprietary school education upon transfer discouraging students who have attended proprietary schools from continuing their education in more traditional degree programs?

CONVERGENCE OF MISSION: FORCED OR ORGANIC?

Moore presents a problematic scenario, arguing that the apparent convergence of community colleges and proprietary schools masks persistent, consequential differences. Moore outlines two approaches to what he terms the "illusion of convergence," defining it as either "organic" or "forced." He describes the "organic convergence hypothesis" as the presumption that the boundaries between community colleges and proprietary schools are becoming blurred as part of a natural evolution. "Forced convergence" is influenced primarily by the federal role in awarding student financial aid. Nearly 80% of proprietary school students receive aid, as opposed to 29% of all students. The boom in proprietary schools in the 1970s and '80s was followed by reduced access to federal funds for schools with high default rates. Efforts to improve student loan default rates have required that proprietary schools behave more like community colleges, a forced convergence.

The fundamental differences between proprietary schools and community colleges--in size, cost, mission, governance, time to program completion, links to the rest of higher education, and market orientation--present a formidable barrier to any natural convergence, according to Moore. He mentions that proprietary schools will always be motivated by market-driven ends, while community colleges will always have more diverse and complex goals. Hawthorne agrees that any shift toward convergence, since it has been prompted primarily by external forces, cannot be viewed as a true merging of mission.

Nonetheless, Clowes points out several ways in which community colleges and proprietary schools are growing more alike. Low graduation and transfer rates raise doubts about the validity of distinguishing community colleges by their degree-granting function. Similarly, community colleges can no longer claim that the general education focus remains at the heart of their curricula, in distinct contrast to that of proprietary schools. Presumed differences in organizational culture are not evident from the existing research and funding differences have faded as proprietary school students receive more public monies via grants and loans. Also, both sectors face increasing pressure to develop innovative methods of evaluating the effectiveness and quality of programs that deliver education through new technology (Chaloux).

CONCLUSION

Public community colleges and proprietary schools have been profoundly affected by changes in student demographics, the climate of federal and state support, accreditation policies, and advancing technology. Current research suggests, however, that the apparent movement toward greater similarity in mission and practice at community colleges and proprietary schools has not, thus far, produced any definitive commitment toward cooperation, or, conversely, clearer differentiation of mission. A major obstacle to greater convergence of mission may be the academic establishment's philosophical bias, which resists any equating of for-profit vocational schools with public higher education institutions. However, the long tradition of proprietary schools in the United States, as well as their increasing influence, should prompt a closer examination of this under-studied segment of our diverse higher education system.

REFERENCES

This Digest is drawn from New Directions for Community Colleges, Number 91, edited by Darrel A. Clowes and Elizabeth M. Hawthorne, published in Fall, 1995: "Community Colleges and Proprietary Schools: Conflict or Convergence?" The cited articles include: "State Oversight of the Proprietary Sector," by Bruce N. Chaloux; "Who are the Students at Community Colleges and Proprietary Schools?" by Xing David Cheng and Bernard H. Levin; "Community College and Proprietary Schools: Conflict or Convergence?" by Darrel A. Clowes; "Proprietary Schools and Community Colleges: The Next Chapter," by Elizabeth M. Hawthorne; "Changes in Mission, Governance, and Funding of Proprietary Postsecondary Institutions," by Jon A. Hittman; "The Story Behind Proprietary Schools in the United States," by Craig A. Honick; "Curriculum as a Path to Convergence," by Cheryl Hyslop and Michael H. Parsons; "The Illusion of Convergence: Federal Student Aid Policy in Community Colleges and Proprietary Schools," by Richard W. Moore; and "Ties that Bind: Default, Accreditation, and Articulation," by Carolyn Prager.

The ERIC Clearinghouse operates under OERI Contract No. RI 93-002-003. The opinions expressed in this digest do not necessarily reflect the position or policy of OERI and no official endorsement by OERI should be inferred.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Title: Community Colleges and Proprietary Schools. ERIC Digest.

Note: Drawn from "Community Colleges and Proprietary Schools: Conflict or Convergence? New Directions for Community Colleges Number 91," edited by Darrel A. Clowes and Elizabeth M. Hawthorne; see ED 387 193.

Document Type: Information Analyses---ERIC Information Analysis Products (IAPs) (071); Information Analyses---ERIC Digests (Selected) in Full Text (073);

Available From: ERIC Clearinghouse for Community Colleges, University of California at Los Angeles, 3051 Moore Hall, Los Angeles, CA 90095-1521.

Descriptors: College Curriculum, College Role, Community Colleges, Educational Finance, Educational Trends, Institutional Mission, Organizational Objectives, Private Education, Proprietary Schools, Student Costs, Student Financial Aid, Two Year Colleges

Identifiers: ERIC Digests

###

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Return to ERIC Digest Search Page]

315 posted on 01/16/2002 1:04:58 PM PST by pttttt
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To: EricOKC
Just because someone is not originally from this country doesnt mean he must give up the natural right of self defense.

Latest Freeper thinking is that foreigners have no rights.

316 posted on 01/16/2002 1:07:18 PM PST by Grut
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To: Hillary's Lovely Legs
This is just terrible! I hate most lawyers, too, but I wouldn't wish this on anyone.
317 posted on 01/16/2002 1:08:59 PM PST by Saundra Duffy
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To: AmericanInTokyo
foreigners in the US do not have gun ownership rights. what the hell is this suspect doing with the piece?

Sure they do, as much as anyone else anyway. As long as they are legal residents that is. The second amendment protects "the right of the people", the Supreme Court has ruled that "the people" as used in the bill of rights, includes more than citizens.

While this textual exegesis is by no means conclusive, it suggests that "the people" protected by the Fourth Amendment, and by the First and Second Amendments, and to whom rights and powers are reserved in the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, refers to a class of persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community. UNITED STATES v. VERDUGO-URQUIDEZ

318 posted on 01/16/2002 1:13:48 PM PST by El Gato
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To: Carolina
Thanks for that added info on the Dean who was killed today. Amazing, isn't it? Inquiring minds can't help but wonder ....and wander....but will try to bring my inquiring mind in and tell it to just shut up.
319 posted on 01/16/2002 1:15:47 PM PST by Freedom'sWorthIt
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To: Saundra Duffy
A timely, if tragic story.

Tomorrow, the faculty here at my law school hold their meeting to finalize the first-term marks. Each class has to come out with a B average, so there'll be plenty of jiggery-pokery with the marks. I don't know what the practice is in most American law schools, but up here, you'd have to be Solomon, Blackstone and Clarence Darrow combined to get an A, and totally brain dead to get an F.

320 posted on 01/16/2002 1:16:26 PM PST by Loyalist
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