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1 posted on 02/01/2002 10:21:47 AM PST by Exnihilo
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To: Exnihilo
If you are a libertarian, then there is no point in reading any further

As you wish.

92 posted on 02/01/2002 11:08:54 AM PST by Eagle Eye
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To: Exnihilo
An overly long treatise supporting authoritarianism, but let's pick a paragraph and parse, shall we...
collectivism: Despite the claimed horror at 'collectivism', libertarians share the general liberal preference for collective forms of decision-making - above all, the market. This is often legitimised by a claimed universal necessity, to "balance" or "weigh" preferences. This is an ancient metaphor, and very popular since Newton, but the 'necessity' is not self-evident. No can show why preferences should be balanced, or weighed: to want them weighed or balanced is a preference in itself. It is, by definition, a collectivist preference, since at least two people must participate. In practice, free-market decisions are always collective: supply of one product, by one maker, to one customer is not a free market. A free market in the libertarian sense needs at least three parties: with only one buyer and one seller, there is no competition. In such a free market, with multiple parties and competition, all parties influence the final state of affairs. No individual can decide that outcome alone. While claiming to reject autocracy, libertarianism has in fact abandoned autonomy.
This is mostly jiberish. Calling the free-market "collectivism" doesn't make it so. The market is a vast collection of free individuals. They each, as individuals, decide the value of any given commodity. And each individual then acts upon his judgement and decides whether or not to participate in a transaction. The buyer buys at a given price or the seller sells at that price each according to his own will. If one doesn't like the price, then he is free to walk away from the transaction. In an authoritarian society, be it leftist or rightist, those commodity values are set by the State. Also, the decision to participate in the sale is made by the State. What you may buy or sell, where you may buy or sell it, and what price you will pay or get are all set by the State. That is collectivism. And it is still collectivism even if one cloaks it in a veneer of "traditional values". Changing the definition of a word may work for Humpty Dumpty or Bill Clinton, but it doesn't work in reality.
97 posted on 02/01/2002 11:12:44 AM PST by Redcloak
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To: Exnihilo
"redistribution of wealth is not wrong:
Libertarians argue as if it was self-evidently wrong, to steal the legitimately owned property of the rich, and give it to the poor. But it's not wrong, not wrong at all. Redistribution of wealth is inherently good: in fact, it is a moral obligation of the state. Excessive wealth is there to be redistributed: the only issue is what is 'excessive'. And of course this is coercion, and of course Bill Gates would scream 'Tyranny!' if the government gave his money to the poor of Africa. But it's still not wrong, not wrong at all.

people are not absolutely entitled to keep the money they earned:
Labour creates no entitlement to property. The claim that is does is merely a culturally specific preference: the labour theory of value - ironically a pillar of Marxist theory. Other cultures might claim that God's grace, or piousness, or filial devotion, or patrilineal descent, or status, create the entitlement to property and wealth. There is no objective standard, by which these claims can be ranked. On this issue, you say what you choose to believe. I say the state should tax those with more than an acceptable minimum income. But what if they are the creators of wealth, and they refuse to create when they are taxed? Well then let us all live in poverty, and let us imprison them, for trying to blackmail the state into lowering their taxes."

And you call yourself a Conservative first, then a Republican.
Sorry, I don't buy it if you espouse these two points, Your a liberal plain and simple if you give either of these two paragraphs any credence whatsoever...
Now admit it, You really didn't even read this before you posted it, did you?

118 posted on 02/01/2002 11:19:49 AM PST by Tattooed Soul
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To: Exnihilo
Firstly, libertarianism is a legitimation of the existing order, at least in the United States.

If this is true, it is all you need to know about libertarianism in order to love it.

But the phrase "legitimation of the existing order" has the stink of 1960's Berkley collectivism about it. Some things just can't be perfumed.

127 posted on 02/01/2002 11:22:44 AM PST by js1138
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To: Exnihilo
BUMP
175 posted on 02/01/2002 11:41:07 AM PST by Aurelius
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To: Exnihilo
The choice given me by the two major parties are marxism or fascism. I consider myself a strict constructionist so I will take the libertarian side almost every time. They are the only party that acknowledges goverment is limited by the Constitution.

Why these rants against the libertarians today, somebody lose your welfare check?

178 posted on 02/01/2002 11:41:57 AM PST by steve50
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To: Exnihilo
two words: human nature
189 posted on 02/01/2002 11:45:45 AM PST by CIB-173RDABN
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To: Exnihilo
The section entitled values</> begins:

"The values of libertarianism can not be rationally grounded."Is there a political philosophy whose values and/or premises can be rationally grounded?

191 posted on 02/01/2002 11:46:34 AM PST by Aurelius
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To: Exnihilo
The section entitled values begins:

"The values of libertarianism can not be rationally grounded."

Is there a political philosophy whose values and/or premises can be rationally grounded?

194 posted on 02/01/2002 11:47:44 AM PST by Aurelius
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To: Exnihilo
I'm amazed this thread has lasted a full hour and a half.
209 posted on 02/01/2002 11:56:16 AM PST by wardaddy
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To: Exnihilo
This article is just like an excerpt from a Communist manual--and I know what I'm saying, as I had the misfortune of growing up in a country under Soviet occupation. It's not really about Libertarians; it's about us Conservatives. IT STINKS.
212 posted on 02/01/2002 11:57:15 AM PST by Smile-n-Win
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To: Exnihilo

Well, with respect to their showing in the polls.. I guess Darwin won.

238 posted on 02/01/2002 12:19:53 PM PST by Jhoffa_
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To: Exnihilo
Opponents of Libertarianism are people who have, by their opposition, defined themselves as afraid of or unworthy of freedom. I do not fear freedom. As such I will never live as a slave.

You are free to define yourself as you please.

283 posted on 02/01/2002 1:09:20 PM PST by muir_redwoods
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To: Exnihilo
The author of this article is an Anti-American Communist in the Netherlands.
among the other articles he has at the source web site are:

WHY DEMOCRACY IS WRONG      [which says among other things, RICH Persons should not be allowed to vote!]

The reality is that the rich (and some other categories) have a double, and more than double, vote. Depriving them of the vote partly corrects this structural injustice in
western democracies. Voting and candidacy rights could be removed from such categories as:

[or how about this one!  HARD WORK is morally wrong!]

Don't work hard!

          Hard work and longer working hours are praised by politicians and business, in the successful EU economies. The 'shining
          example' is the USA, which indeed has the longest workweek of any advanced economy. But hard work is morally wrong - with
          certain exceptions, such as the fire service or health care.

[just look at all of this filth!]

http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/

This guy didn't just think up lies about libertarians he would like to destroy all Americans!

His work makes him seem like the TED KAZINSKI of Holland!

Rot in hell fool!


 

291 posted on 02/01/2002 1:16:52 PM PST by higgmeister
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To: Exnihilo
Why is libertarianism wrong? Here's a better question: Why are so many conservatives freaked out (obsessed) by libertarians? The word Libertarian is based on the word liberty...and our founding fathers were big into liberty. I think conservatives think libertarian = liberal. I think most libertarians are very conservative. Especially on the issues that matter most.
325 posted on 02/01/2002 3:12:38 PM PST by hove
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To: Exnihilo
It would appear that some "Conservatives" consider Libertarianism a threat. Why is that? Is it because Libertarians, who believe in a government held to it's Constitutional limits, are a logical alternative to "more of the same"?

It would seem that a true Conservative should want the freedom that their fathers fought and died for and would vigorously fight any attempt to diminish them.

What's amazing is that every election cycle we hear Republican politicians talk of less government, less spending etc. and then, when in office, those grand old ideals take a back seat.

329 posted on 02/01/2002 3:35:09 PM PST by Archaeus
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To: Exnihilo
market forces not defined as coercion

Of course not, no more than the law of gravity is defined as coercion. The laws of economics and the law of gravity are almost equally set into stone.

This anti-libertarian screed has so many false premises in, so much bad logic, it's not worth my time to pick apart every single stupid thing in it.

333 posted on 02/01/2002 3:43:52 PM PST by xm177e2
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To: Exnihilo
You forgot the BARF ALERT
347 posted on 02/01/2002 4:50:08 PM PST by Tauzero
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To: Exnihilo
I love it when anti-libertarians try to tell libertarians what they believe.
353 posted on 02/01/2002 9:31:34 PM PST by JakeWyld
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To: Exnihilo
They are for open borders and legalizing drugs.
410 posted on 02/03/2002 9:37:53 AM PST by doc
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