A Question for Creationists

February 5th, 2002 | Sabertooth

[Sabertooth]

A Question for Creationists

Genesis 1:

1   In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2   And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3    And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4   And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5   And God called the light Day , and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6   And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7   And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.
8   And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9   And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so.
10   And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good.
11   And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12   And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
13   And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14   And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15   And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16   And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day , and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.
17   And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18   And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good.
19   And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

20   And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21   And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
22   And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23   And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24   And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25   And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.

26   And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27    So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28    And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29    And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30    And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [I have given] every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31    And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

So there we have it, right? God created the heavens and the Earth and every living thing, including man, in six days. Six, 24-hour days.

And then…

Genesis 2:

1   Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2   And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3   And God blessed the seventh day , and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Here at the begininning of Genesis 2, we see the seventh day. Now we have seven twenty-four hour days.

So far, so good?

And then the next few lines of Genesis 2…

4   These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5   And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and [there was] not a man to till the ground.
6   But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

These verses are a recapitulation of the Genesis 1 account of creation, when God created the heavens and the earth. They further explain the antediluvian conditions on that day, before there was ever rain, when a mist would rise up from the ground and…

Wait.

The heavens were created on the second day, but there was no ground until God separated the waters from the earth on the third day of Creation. Look again at Genesis 1 : 6-10.

Genesis 1:

6   And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7   And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.
8   And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9   And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so.
9   And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so.
10   And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good.

How can the heavens be created on the same day there was a mist rising from the ground in Genesis 2, when these things occurred on different days in Genesis 1?

The word "day" in Genesis 1 and 2 is translated from the Hebrew "yom." It's the same word in all of the places I've highlighted in red. In fact, about 99% of the time the word "day" is found in the Old Testament, the original Hebrew is "yom."

If the word "day" in the Genesis 1 is a normal 24-hour day, rather than an allegorical phrasing for a much longer period of time (as seen elsewhere in the Bible, Ps. 90:4 and 2 Peter 3: 8 being good examples), and the word "day" in Genesis 2:4 is also a 24 hour day, we appear to have a contradiction between Genesis 1 and 2. The only way Genesis 2:4 can be reconciled is if "day" refers to a period of longer than 24 hours.

But if the word "day" is figurative in Genesis 2:4, then why not in Genesis 1?

Why does the word "day" in Genesis 1 have to mean a literal 24-hour period?

[Sabertooth]

Companion thread:

A Question for Evolutionists

[Sabertooth]

(((ping))))

[CheneyChick]

It all depends on your definition of "day".

Beautiful graphics, Saberkitty! Nice work!

[monkeyshine]

I've got my Rashi's commentary on the Pentateuch right here... but I really am having a hard time understanding your questions. What is it you want to know? I will quote to you verbatim what it says in Rashi's commentary.

[Sabertooth]

Thanks Betty.

[Buckeroo]

Keep in mind that within Genesis there is no exclaimation about the direction of Islam or Christianity or Jewish faith; besides other religious faith. Nope, nothing ........... it is all in the dark.

[RaceBannon]

How can the heavens be created on the same day there was a mist rising from the ground in Genesis 2, when these things occurred on different days in Genesis 1?

You are misreading the verse. In Genesis 2, it is spoken of as being a general time, as in 'the general period of time when', not as if it was the same day.

[jbstrick]

Interesting post. I have often pondered that myself. I am by education a scientist. I do believe in the theory of evolution. HOWEVER, I do not believe man evolved directly from apes. There is simply no direct evidence.

[CheneyChick]

2 Peter 3:8

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

[jbstrick]

"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."

Exactly!! I remember that phrase from Sunday school.

[RaceBannon]

Science, Scripture, and the Saviour.

The 6 days of creation: Were they days or ages?

The Gap Theory

[Russell Scott]

God transcends time, space, and matter. Since God can move back and forth in time, time becomes very hard to quantify. The best thing to do is accept Christ so you are assured of eternal salvation. Then when you enter eternal paradise, you will have the mind of God, and know and understand the answer to all your questions.

[RaceBannon]

see post 11. The days of Creation were not 1000 years. Look back at the top of the screen, and notice the order of events of creation. Imagine a world with plants for 1000 years with no sun!

[monkeyshine]

Not according to Rashi. Here is what Rashi says about Gen 4:

This teaches you that all of them were created on the first day.

There is more here, but it is somewhat esoteric. Because if you read this verse in the Hebrew script, the spelling of the word "they were created" is altered slightly to include a small Hey, which of course is used twice in the Hebrew name for God.

He goes on to explain that this infers that God created two worlds, and that this world was created with the letter Hey. "An intimation that the wicked will descend o the nether world, to see the pit like the letter Hey, which is closed from all sides and is open at the bottom [for the wicked] to descend through there.

[Sabertooth]

You are misreading the verse. In Genesis 2, it is spoken of as being a general time, as in 'the general period of time when', not as if it was the same day.

Seems to me that's exactly how I read the verse. Hence my question...

Why is "day" not a twenty-four hour period in Genesis 2:4, yet it must be in Genesis 1?

[monkeyshine]

I believe the biblical theory is that the plants existed beneath the surface of the earth, not to sprout until the sun and the rain could make them viable -- like a seed can survive under the ground without water or sun... water will make it begin to sprout even without sunlight, and the sunlight will make it rise from the earth.

[RaceBannon]

God transcends time, space, and matter. Since God can move back and forth in time, time becomes very hard to quantify. The best thing to do is accept Christ so you are assured of eternal salvation. Then when you enter eternal paradise, you will have the mind of God, and know and understand the answer to all your questions.

What is your basis for saying that God goes back and forth in time?
If God uses time references to teach us things, like why we have a week, why we have a year, and why the Sabbath day was to be a certain day, and yet to also consider that time is NOT important at all, why does God use the time references to us? Isn't it because the time references were accurate for a reason? Because they genuinely represented the time God took to accomplish what He said He accomplished in that time period? If you throw out the time references, you have no reason to not throw out anything else, for the same logic can apply. Either it means what it says, especially when it is specific, or it does not mean anything it says.

[Cowgirl]

Would you call God a liar? He said he made it in a 24 hour period and His Word is true. Any misunderstanding is on our part, not His.

[CheneyChick]

I've always taken it as a figure of speech, RB. Not a literal thousand years... God does not view time as humans do, but stands above it with the view of eternity. Time is relative.

[RaceBannon]

You would be wrong, then, because the Bible says that seed existed with Grass and plants.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

[monkeyshine]

I believe you are tricking yourself. Gen 1: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth". You think this is the order of creation? Not so at all. Gen 1:2 "...The spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters" -- so when did he create the waters? They had to pre-exist the heavens and the earth, according to Gen 1:2.

I believe your problem is you are taking it, AND trying to make it, too literal. It is not sequential, nor exclusively literal. It is poetic.

[RaceBannon]

Then Raschi is wrong. Genesis 1 is a clear telling in specifics of Creation, while Genesis 2 changes tone. It is tellng the same story, but using a different method. God is not contradicting Himself, He is just using a different method of telling the story across to us.

[Rain-maker]

LOL...Bilateral organic brain trying to comprehend God!

Well it's good to keep trying anyways!

[Tennessee_Bob]

Why does the word "day" in Genesis 1 have to mean a literal 24-hour period?

Because some folks are extremely literal. Later on in the Bible it says something akin to the span of a man's life is but a blink of an eye to God.

[monkeyshine]

How, exactly, does Gen 11 make me wrong?

[Sabertooth]

I believe your problem is you are taking it, AND trying to make it, too literal. It is not sequential, nor exclusively literal. It is poetic.

You misunderstand... this is exactly how I take it. Poetic and allegorical. And true within that context. The purpose of the question at the end of the post:

Why does the word "day" in Genesis 1 have to mean a literal 24-hour period?

was to pose a challenge to the literalists.

[Tennessee_Bob]

Imagine a world with plants for 1000 years with no sun!

And you're saying that God couldn't manage that?

[RaceBannon]

You also need to remember the rest of the 1000 year context of that verse. Do you remember it? It is all about God's willingness to let us repent and not judge us right away for our sins. Please read this whole passage here first.

' II Peter 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Make sure you read the whole passage here.

Notice there is not one reference to Creation in that 1000 year phrase, it is connected to the mercy of God and His unwillingness for us to perish but to come to repentence. To use the 1000 year reference outside this is in error, the 1000 year= a Day reference was spoken about God's mercy toward us.

[monkeyshine]

Genesis 1 is a clear telling in specifics of Creation

I don't believe Rashi is wrong. Clearly Gen 1:2 reveals that the waters were created before the Heavens and the Earth as described in Gen 1:1. So when it says "In the beginning God Created the Heavens and the Earth" we find out in Gen 1:2 that he had already created the water before the "beginning". You just can't read it to be sequential.

[El Gato]

HOWEVER, I do not believe man evolved directly from apes. There is simply no direct evidence.

Nor do must evoluntionists who study the matter. Rather they believer that men and apes are branches of the same limb, as it were, of the tree of life. That is that apes, at least the great apes, and men (naked apes?) have a common ancestor, but are not lineal decendents one of the other. Kind of like cousins with common grandparents, a poor analogy perhaps.

[monkeyshine]

I'm not saying that God contradicts himself. He is merely revealing more about His methods.

[monkeyshine]

bump

[RaceBannon]

Sorry!! (I was wondering what YOUR question meant!)

Genesis 1:11 is what i posted, I thought you would recognize that it is cut and pasted from the top of the screen from Genesis 1

[RaceBannon]

And you're saying that God couldn't manage that?

Since the Bible does not teach that, it is wrong, that is what I am saying. Look up what i wrote to Cheney Chick on the 1000 year misunderstanding many people have.

[RaceBannon]

God never said Creation took only 24 hours, what did you mean? I am confused by what you wrote. :-)

[monkeyshine]

Yes, I recognized it as Gen 1:11.. that is what I meant, actually.

[RaceBannon]

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

No, the Heavens and the Earth created together only shows waters were created with the Earth. Notice it says the FACE OF THE DEEP. Deep What? That refers to water, and so does the mentioning of the Spirit on the waters.

When we read further, we read in verse
6: And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. ...That clearly implies the waters were already there as mentioned in verse 2 previously.

Everytime we examine this, water was already there, it is in the description in verse 2, it is in verse 6, water, water all around. I think you should see it now.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

Both verses show that Water was already there, it is in the clear language of the verse, water already existed, it was not created in the order you assumed.

[MississippiMan]

I believe God created it all, and because I accept His Son as my Savior, one day I'll have all these specific answers. Until then, there will be many aspects and details of God and what He has done that I will not understand.

MM

[monkeyshine]

Why does the word "day" in Genesis 1 have to mean a literal 24-hour period?

As I read it, a day means one period of sunlight and one period without. I suppose that is the same as 24 hours by our standards.

Gen 1:1 says "In the beginning", it does not say "At first". Thus we know right away that this is a story of the events, but not necessarily in the order in which they appear, nor do they completely detail all of His works.

So what should be interpreted is that "In the beginning" really means is that "In the beginning of God's creating", but not necessarily in the order.

Additionally, the Hebrew word for "heavens" is a compound word of "Fire" and "Water" -- which also indicates that fire and water pre-existed Heaven and earth.

[DoughtyOne]

I'd compare the Genisis 2:4 statement to this...

In my father's day a lot of things were different. How does the same word apply to Genesis 1? I can't tell you for sure and I'm not sure anyone can. Could the word actually have had duel meaning in it's day, which isn't recognized today? I don't know. Perhaps others do.

There are certain conflicts within the Bible. Those that want to use those conflicts to discredit it will. Those who wish to accept the Bible on faith will have their questions answered eventually, if their faith is justified.

I have accepted the literal meaning (in my estimation) of Genesis 1 and 2. I have done so because I was raised a believer of the Seventh-Day Sabbath. That Sabbath as been celebrated for something like four thousand years if I remember correctly. I have accepted the observance on faith because we are admonished to do so in Exodus 20:3-17. Others will tell you that this observance was abolished at the cross. I don't buy into that.

God blessed and sanctified the seventh day. And when I observe the Sabbath as I have explained it, it seems to be very rewarding. Can't explain it. I feel blessed for having done so.

Hey, this is my perception. I'm sure you'll hear many others.

[RightWhale]

It's allegorical. Not to be taken literally. Same with most of the NT. Anyway, everybody knows the story is the same more or less as the rest of the creation myths of the region.

For example: how thick is the firmament? What is meant by the face of the deep? From John, "In the beginning was the Word": what is that about? These things have meaning, but not to literalists.

[monkeyshine]

I agree completely. That is my point, that the waters were already there.

[Diddle E. Squat]

I dunno, it seems that a devout Christian insisting on a literal 24-hour day is limiting God just as much as an evolutionist who claims it has to be over thousands or millions of years. As earlier pointed out, our time references mean nothing to God. Who's to say he didn't do it all in 6 of our seconds?

As to trying to show that Genesis contradicts itself, remember, God is explaining an act of his that is probably in totality far beyond what we could ever fully grasp and understand(like infinity and exactly who God is in all his manifestations, his omnipotence). Like a nuclear physicist trying to explain his job to his 2-year old child, God has likely simplified the story in order to explain to us in a way in which we can grasp the basics. So the story is told using images that any person can relate to, picture, and understand the concept being conveyed, but not necessarily literally.

No one will ever be able to fully explain or comprehend how God implemented creation, and it doesn't really matter. What's done is done, and we certainly aren't going to replicate it! What matters is that he could do it, and do it again, and anything he would like, so lets recognize his awesome power and presence and bow in humble thanks.

Or I guess you could believe in a big bang that just so happened to coincidentally have all kinds of absolutely statistically impossible string of convergences that resulted in a perfectly balanced self-correcting system that just so happened to produce men with souls(sorry dolphins, liberal affirmative action still can't give you that, maybe Flipper can go searching with the Scarecrow, Tin Man, and Cowardly Lion in the Wizard of Oz sequel).Even for a skeptic, the odds of a higher power creating the universe are far greater.

[RaceBannon]

You said that seeds are what made the plants, and that would allow for this long time period you thnk of, yet, the Bible says that PLANTS AND SEEDS were made at the same time

Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass,,( NOTE: NO SEED YET)
the herb yielding seed,(NOTE: SEEDS CAME AFTER GRASS),
and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind,,,(NOTE: FRUIT CAME BEFORE SEED)
whose seed is in itself,,(NOTE: SEED MENTIONED AFTER FRUIT FORMED) upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass,( NOTE: NO SEED YET)
and herb yielding seed after his kind (NOTE: SEEDS CAME AFTER GRASS),
and the tree yielding fruit,(NOTE: FRUIT CAME BEFORE SEED)
whose seed was in itself,(NOTE: SEED MENTIONED AFTER FRUIT FORMED) after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

...Clearly show both plant and seed were made on day three, together, not seed that became plants in some mixed up order, but both were created on day three. Grass was made before seed, see that?

[monkeyshine]

In direct answer to your question, a day is the 24 hours you spoke of (a period of sunlight and period of darkness) and God created all of it on the first day, as stated in Gen 2:1.

I will look into this more and report back. I remember studying this but cannot recall the explanation I was given so I will look it up further.

[CalConservative]

You are misreading the verse. In Genesis 2, it is spoken of as being a general time, as in 'the general period of time when', not as if it was the same day.

Exactly. Genesis is generally attributed to Moses, but biblical scholars generally believe there were two authors, P and J. The first creation account (Gen 1:1 - 2:3) is attributed to P, based on writing styles. Neither author is considered to be Moses, by the way.

Interestingly enough, the Creation Hymn (Gen 1:1 - 2:3), as it is often known, is considered to be the story of Creation handed down through the generations from Adam's time, which is why the poetic style is so distinct.

[RaceBannon]

I dunno, it seems that a devout Christian insisting on a literal 24-hour day is limiting God just as

Instead of thinking it is limiting God, think of this: I am quoting Him at what He said. He did not say He took undetermned time periods, He said He took 6 days. He did NOT say He let us evolve, He said He created us. See the difference?

This approach is not limiting God, it is trusting what He said as truth. If we cannot trust what He said, why believe it at all? Remember what Satan said?

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said,.....

The arguement that we are limiting God, is actually calling God a liar. It is clear what He said, it says He did it in 6 days. What you might want to ask, is why did it take so long? Why wasn't it immediate? Why take as long as 6 days?

(HINT: It has to do with why we wear clothes, why the family is important, why we worship on a certain instead of others...)

[Diddle E. Squat]

Wow, I sure wouldn't go near that far. Other than Revelations and some of Jesus's parables and sayings, what else in the NT would be? The historical accounts are pretty straight forward, as are the teachings on lifestyles, sin, attitudes, Great Commission, etc.

[RaceBannon]

I agree completely. That is my point, that the waters were already there.

We only agree if you beleve the waters were created day one! :-)

[monkeyshine]

I will look that up further too. I was proffering a hypothesis, I'll readily admit I could be wrong. Note however that grass requires seed. You seem to be saying that the chicken came before the egg... and since we are discussing creation it is obviously possible, and your explanation makes sense. But it is not necessarily so since we know that He has not always explained the order sequentially (as in, the waters existed before the heavens and earth).