Posted on 02/14/2002 8:34:36 AM PST by OBAFGKM
New species clarifies bird-dinosaur link
Field Museum paleontologist helps analyze fossil
CHICAGO – The discovery and analysis of an early carnivorous dinosaur, Sinovenator changii, are clarifying the evolutionary relationship between dinosaurs and birds, according to a paper to be published in Nature Feb. 14, 2002.
The small, relatively complete fossil was found in the rich Yixian Formation of western Liaoning in China, where scientists have recently discovered many groundbreaking fossils, including feathered dinosaurs.
“This new dinosaur, which was probably feathered, is closely related to and almost the same age as the oldest known bird, Archaeopteryx,” says Peter Makovicky, PhD, assistant curator of dinosaurs at The Field Museum and co-author of the paper. “It demonstrates that major structural modifications toward birds occurred much earlier in the evolutionary process than previously thought.
“Furthermore, these findings help counter, once and for all, the position of paleontologists who argue that birds did not evolve from dinosaurs,” he adds.
Article continues at Field Museum Press Release.
For the author to claim that Archaeopteryx is the oldest bird ignores the existing controversy among experts and betrays his bias. This article discusses the current debate and ends with this paragraph.
So, in the end, what is Archaeopteryx ? Was it a theropod dinosaur or a bird? Could it fly or not? Is it a crucial missing-link or a bizarre offshoot? A legitimate fossil or an artful hoax? The answers to these questions are far from complete but I'll bet that Archaeopteryx will continue to provoke curiosity and debate for a long time to come yet.
Well, he's certainly a fossil.
Possibly, and Janet Reno might be the only living fossil.
Creationist: There ARE NO transitional fossils. Look at fossil of species A that evoluionists claim evolved into fossil of species B. There's nothing in between!
Evolutionist Paleontologist: Look, I just found fossil C. It's in-between fossil A and fossil B in age, and has characteristics of both. There's yet another of the thousands of transitional forms that have been found.
Creationist: Look at fossil of species A and fossil of specis C! Look at fossil of species C and fossil of species B! There's nothing in-between! There are no transitional forms!
Evolutionist Paleontologist: Ok, I've found fossil D and fossile E. Fossil D is younger than fossil A and older than fossil C, and it has characteristics of both. Fossil E is younger than fossil C and older than fossil B. Both fossils are yet more of the thousands of transitional fossils we've discovered.
Creationist: THERE ARE NO TRANSITIONAL FOSSILS! WHERE IS THE TRANSITION BETWEEN FOSSIL A AND FOSSIL D BLAH BLAH BLAH RANT RANT RANT
The laughable Paluxy "man" tracks of creation "science"?
Are you suggesting that "PROBABLY=Theory", therefore S. changii is not a transitional form? What's your point??
Its closest known relatives are on the dinosaur side of the line, however. I refer to Protoarchaeopteryx and this unclassified dromaeosaur (perhaps a juvenile Sinornithosaurus).
Actually, you mean "probably" is not fact, but even so, Dr. Makovicky doesn't present the statement as fact. However, he does hypothesize that S. changii had feathers. He does so because it is apparently closely related to creatures that demonstrably had feathers.
As for the Bible vs. evolution, I am staying out of this one!! Believe what you like.
Oh wait this isn't a caption thread... sorry!
01: Site that debunks virtually all of creationism's fallacies. Excellent resource.
02: Creation "Science" Debunked.
03: Creationi sm and Pseudo Science. Familiar cartoon then lots of links.
04: The SKEPTIC annotated bibliography. Amazingly great meta-site!
05: The Evidence for Human Evolution. For the "no evidence" crowd.
06: Massi ve mega-site with thousands of links on evolution, creationism, young earth, etc..
07: Another amazing site full of links debunking creationism.
08: Creationism and Pseudo Science. Great cartoon!
09: Glenn R. Morton's site about creationism's fallacies. Another jennyp contribution.
11: Is Evolution Science?. Successful PREDICTIONS of evolution (Moonman62).
12: Five Major Misconceptions about Evolution. On point and well-written.
13: Frequently Asked But Never Answered Questions. A creationist nightmare!
14: DARWIN, FULL TEXT OF HIS WRITINGS. The original ee-voe-lou-shunist.
The foregoing was just a tiny sample. So that everyone will have access to the accumulated "Creationism vs. Evolution" threads which have previously appeared on FreeRepublic, plus links to hundreds of sites with a vast amount of information on this topic, here's Junior's massive work, available for all to review: The Ultimate Creation vs. Evolution Resource [ver 15].
Remember the one from last year that later proved to be the fossil of two creatures supperimposed on one another? I hope you will forgive me if I am a bit jaded and skepitcal toward such claims at this point. We will see how this holds up. In the meantime, you guys can get to work explaining how the avian continuous through-put resiratory system could possible evlove from the in-out system of all other vertebrates.
PS- if they find any older bird fossils I will consider the growing possiblity that dinosaurs evolved from birds.
Yes, in most cases that's wise. But sometimes they become pesky, as when they want to wuck up the school system; and then it's valuable to understand their ways. Also, in websites like this one, where so many thousands are lurking and getting their impressions of conservatism, it's important to show that there is indeed rationality on the right. However, I quite agree that no one ever changes the mind of a creationist. But these debates aren't really for that purpose.
...probably
Homer; "Marge, in theory, Communism is a great system...in theory".
Admittedly I'm biased too. I don't consider anyone who would fall for supernaturalist stuff
as a real conservative, because in my opinion, a conservative position is based on reality and logic.
Supernaturalists have demonstrated they don't comprehend either reality or logic.
I fully expect to get flamed for my opinion. Not a problem, I'll just add a few names to my "ignore list."
Ah, a creationist drive-by.
The existence of God is a premise, so that the rest of the theology can be derived. An additional premise is that God is good. (If God is evil, then a whole different set of deductions take place.) Neither of those two can be proven or disproven, but assuming those two are true will allow you to use logic to derive a lot of morality.
If you are referring to the young earth creationists and catastrophism proponents, I agree that they will ignore all anecdotal evidence to support their beliefs. Beliefs (premises) that are falsifiable. Assuming that you believe in materialism, and that scientific principles act now like they in the past, and will act the same in the future. I'm not a religious person or very good at logic, so maybe someone who is will comment on this.
Actually there is very little fraud (intentional deception) in evolutionary science. As in other fields, fraud in science tends to occur where the most money is. Unsurprisingly a large proportion of scientific fraud occurs in the biomedical fields as this is where a large proportion of research dollars are spent.
There are probably some others, but only two or three examples of fraud in evolutionary biology or paleontology come to mind.
One is the famous Piltdown Hoax. It is the most exceptional in that there seems to have been no financial motivation involved, nor even any motivation of personal glory or reputation (in that the hoaxer never revealed himself, and was almost certainly not among those who published substantial scientific results based on the fossils). Another was the recent Archaeoraptor liaoningensis hoax, which was more typical in apparently involving a Chinese fossil merchant trying to turn a buck. In neither of these cases was the fraud perpetrated by the scientists publicizing the finds; in both cases they were the "dupes".
The only case that comes to mind where the perpetrator and promter of the fraud were one in the same person would be the misleading drawings of vertebrate embryos by Haekel in the 19th century. Even in this case it should be borne in mind that Haekel's drawings were slanted on behalf of a particular theory (embryonic recapitulation) which was widely disputed by other evolutionists even in his own time, and has no currency today.
Do you know of any other examples of evolutionary fraud (intentional deception)?
Don't you realize that scientists don't lie or distort?
Nature's Editors Conceal Fraud
case report D.K.Yuryev, d.yuryev@mtu-net.ru Apparently, most editors of sci. journals publicly agree that to some extent they are responsible for publishing fraudulent papers (as well as erroneous, plagiarized etc.). So did Nature's editor P.Campbell, declaring in a recent big "briefing on science and fraud" that: Yet, of course, officials may lie (I have informed Mr. Campbell about this suggestion) and actual behaviour of editorial boards may significantly differ from announced principles. My remarkable experience of submitting a whistle blow to Nature clearly shows that its actual editorial practice is to use every possible bureaucratic trick NOT to publish any information about papers that have proved suspect or false. |
Well maybe some people don't think that everything is okey-dokey. You might wish to check the Hewitt link.
Well, having read the linked paged, and puttered around a bit in Hewitt's book, I would have to say (on a first impression) that the Nature editor was quite correct in referring to him as a "querulous" and unreasonable person. To that I would add excessively self-absorbed. I can't imagine why you posted this link.
That being said I am quite aware that there is fraud in science. The subject, however, was fraud in the field of evolution. My contention is that fraud tends to be lower in this field than most others (not because evolutionary scientists are better persons or scientists than their peers, but because it is a relatively small field with few high prestige positions available, and one which does not attract a great deal of research funds).
Did you have any examples of fraud in evolutionary science other than Piltdown, Archaeoraptor or Haekel's embryos?
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