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To: Rokke
Your first point "Beers said their activity was not classified." I didn't say he did.

It sure looks like you did. You said:

So if we are to believe Beers, we need to accept that the USS Trepang was operating covertly, in a classified exercise..."

Since Beers said the activity was not classified, I don't see why believing him requires that we believe the activity was classified. Back to your reply.

Your next point "The submariner here said the Trepang can dive in even shallower water." Actually, what he said is it could submerge in shallower water. According to Beers' buddy, Beer's said the sub crash dived. Big difference.

Not a significant difference according to the submariner, who told you..... "The 637 Class boats had very small vents, and no bow planes. A "Crash Dive" would be ordering the vents opened before you left the bridge (see #3)."

Your next point "The TWA crash was not "in broad daylight."" Really? Several eyewitnesses reported observing TWA 800 before it exploded.

If "broad daylight" means "any time in which visibility is not zero," even when the sun is below the horizon, you're right.

Final point: "There are radar tracks other than the 30-knot track." Sure, but find me one that matches Beer's description other than the 30 knot track. There isn't one.

There are some tracks about 4 or 5 miles from the crash. I'm not sure the chart on the other page is as clear as others I've seen. Beers was pretty clear that he's making estimates, he even notes that he doesn't not have navigational charts before him.

64 posted on 03/02/2002 5:37:26 PM PST by VectoRama
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To: VectoRama
"It sure looks like you did."

Then I apologize. My point in the sentence you quote was to highlight the fact that Beer's said he was on the surface in the daylight a couple miles from shore, which is obviously not very covert. I believe the assumption that the exercises were classified is clear in the article as a whole and Irvine states that in his original article concerning Beers. If you believe Beers, then Irvine's theory is wrong.

"Not a significant difference...."

Perhaps SubMareener could clarify this point. Do Sturgeon class subs "crash dive" and would they do so in 20 fathoms of water. And would they do so while making significant headway?

"There are some tracks about 4 or 5 miles from the crash."

The closest track moving at a speed realistic for a surfaced sub (other than the 30knot track) is roughly 8 miles away. That is about the same distance as TWA 800 was from the shore of Long Island. Since none of the witnesses on shore (there were several within 8-10 miles) felt the urge to dive for cover, why would the OOD if the sub was that far away? Assuming TWA 800 was at 13000ft when it exploded, it would be very clear to someone 8 miles away, that they were not threatened by falling debris.

68 posted on 03/02/2002 6:33:46 PM PST by Rokke
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