Posted on 03/07/2002 6:07:31 AM PST by iav2
But is this what keeps you from murdering?
But what's more, anyone who uses the biblical God's will as basis for their morality must then also accept his will as morally correct if he decides to command the killing of little girls, as he has done in the past according to the Old Testament. I've heard many preachers defend the extermination of the Canaanites as morally correct. They obviously believe it was soley due to the fact that they believe God commanded it.
I was pleasantly suprised to see this article because Dr. Caner was my pastor for a few years here in Colorado. Pastor "Butch", as we call him, is one of the most impressive individuals I have ever met.
Besides being fluent in Arabic and English, Pastor Butch also speaks Italian, Swedish and Hebrew. I remember well the tremendous grief and pain he went through when his father was dying. Pastor Butch left our church in December 2000 to take a teaching position at Dallas Theological Seminary. While I was sad to see him leave, a person of his impressive scholarship should be teaching at a University. Now, to the main thrust of the post... Dr. Caner is thoroughly versed in Islam and has a very definite understanding of the Qur'an. Like many Muslims, he had committed the entire text to memory. He has traveled extensively in Muslim countries as evidence by the difficulties he's had getting through Israeli customs on a Holy Land tour he led for our church. I would not be overstating the matter saying that Dr. Caner is an expert on Islam and Muslim culture.
I don't know your own background and no doubt you know much more about Islam than I do--that said, I suspect that Dr. Caner is accurate in his assessments as stated in the article.
I recognize that my moral claim to act in accordance with the dictates of my own will, is predicated upon my willingness to respect the same ability in others. Hence I recognize the initiation of force or fraud as immoral under all circumstances.
This is SOOOO Clintonesque...U a lawyer?
Neither do I... But you asked the question...
What reason do you have not to go out and kill some little girl?
And so I spelled out the philosophical reasons that murder (and in fact all initiation of force) is morally prohibited.
And then I asked the same question of you (assuming that you'd answer honestly and forthrightly).
My mistake.
You talk about my concern for the truth when you outright lie and bring Jesus into my mockery of your name. I never said anything about Jesus or his views of perversion. You tacked that lie on to try and discredit my mockery of your name. Said name is the most inappropriate on this forum.
Not that I give a shite what you believe to be the truth I no more meant that you were queer than that you take cocaine. "Knows" "Blows" get it?
Of course, the K could stand for "kills" I suppose.
True, but look at how many Christians disavow clinic bombings versus how many Muslims disavow 9/11.
While the Nazis might have been a bit brutal, look what we did to the Indians.
While Stalin's Gulags might have been a bit harsh, does that excuse the Salem Witchcraft Trials?
While having your land invaded and your churches turned into Mosques, like what happened in Spain and Constantinople (now Istanbul where the Hagia Sophia is now a Mosque), does that excuse the brutality of those Crusaders?
While it might have been bad for the Muslims to fly airplane into the World Trade Center, look at how poorly Michealangelo was treated by that Pope.
While burning a trainload of Hindus may have been a slight overreation, look at how God demanded Abraham slay his son. Who could worship such a God?
Life is a peach when you are a relativist.
There was a recent book out on St. Teresa, who was frequently threatened by various bureaucrats from the Inquisition. Makes for good reading, how she outwitted and finessed them. Enough for canonization in that, alone.
You know, we can say any awful thing we please about the self-interested and carnal popes of the past--even in the city of Rome. Try doing that with the Prophet or his mullahs in Mecca.
Many germs will not harm me. But I still wash my hands, undoubtedly sending many harmless, nay beneficial, organisms down the drain.
Until Islam develops enough maturity as a way of thought and a way of life to set up its own filters and discipline, it has amply demonstrated it simply cannot peacefully exist in the West. It doesn't count that most Muslims SAY they are good guys, when they attend mosques that preach hatred, or send their kids to hate-mongering schools, and give money to Islamic " charities" to buy terrorists airline tickets and fake ID.
I do not believe at this juncture in history Muslims have any place in the West. I do not want the job of sorting the good ones from the bad. That's a job for Muslims. Let them get it done elsewhere, and reapply.
BTW I am still waiting for a meaningful gesture from American Muslims. In case they are puzzled as to what to do, how about turning over the 314,000 illegals for whom the INS is looking? How about some American Muslims dropping a dime on the Terrorist "sleeper cells" they know about? How about cleaning up your "schools," where little kids are learning hatred?
Ya know, somewhere else on this site a guy said Islam ain't what Muslims say, it's what they do. Right now, what Muslims are doing is screwing up the country. Do it our way, or eat, sleep and make money somewhere else.
If Christians were behaving this way in Turkey, or Egypt, or Syria, "WWMD?" What Would Muslims Do? We do not treat Muslims as Muslims treat Christians in the Sudan, the Phillippines, or Kosovo, or East Timor.
What Muslims do is demand tolerance until they achieve some means to be even more intolerant than they already are. What they say is entirely irrelevant, when their own scriptures advise deception to further their cause.
Thank you for taking the time to post the information about Dr. Caner. I hope that I will have the honor of meeting him some day.
Regards, BB
All of them did this? Even the women and children who were raped and slaughtered during the years of the crusade? Yes, I can see this as a justification for mass murder. The assasination of Pierre de Castelnau (who, by the way, was actively recruiting knights to participate in murdering the Cathars) was a pretext for the extermination the Church was lusting to launch against a heretical group it despised.
Such actions prompted the Crusade, which quickly deviated from its original religious goals into a political contest. The nobles who led the Crusade were more interested in adding to their political power than spreading the Gospel.
In other words, it was an orgy of evil Christians engaging in conquest, terror, and atrocity. Do you have any more of my points you wish to make for me?
Indeed, the Pope at the time, Innocent III, called for moderation and indeed, deplored the excesses carried out in the name of the Church.
Plausible deniability, Antoninus? It won't work here -- the man was a butcher. He issued the papal bull granting indulgences that allowed the stealing of Albigensian property to all fighters who agreed to take part in the crusade -- only one of several crusades that he launched during his bloody pontificate. He could have shut the whole thing down at any time during the first 7 years while he was still alive if he wanted to stop the atrocities. Instead, the carnage went on for decades, firmly establishing the Christian Church of the time as an evil institution that murders the innocent. That you would even try to defend this barbarism is revolting. But no amount of denial or disowning can change history. It is yours to rationalize at your pleasure.
You claim to follow Christ yet you ignore his words.
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
Trains, planes, automobiles and flying carpets, cannot get you to God.
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