Posted on 03/07/2002 6:07:31 AM PST by iav2
Ergun Caner: Islam is not a Peaceful Religion
Ergun is the oldest son of a Muslim mwazien. The mwazien is similar to a preacher. In 1982 when he was 16 years old, he attended a revival service in Columbus, Ohio, at the invitation of a high school friend and accepted Christ. Ergun started attending church on Monday, accepted Christ on a Thursday -- and had his first piece of ham at a Youth Afterglow activity days later.
When Ergun attended the mosque the next day, his youth group of Shiite Muslims "beat the tar out of me," he says. Ergun's parents were separated at the time (prior to a divorce), and when his father found out about his salvation, he confronted Ergun. When Ergun refused to repudiate his faith in Christ, his father disowned him -- by facing Mecca and praying a prayer of abandonment because it was embarrassing that his oldest son would accept Christ. Sadly this effectively ended their relationship. Ergun didn't see his father for 17 years, until three days before his dad's death in 1999.
Ergun's Swedish mother met and married a Turkish man . They relocated to the U.S .where the younger brothers were born. Ergun says he was called to preach one year after salvation (he began college at 16), becoming a pastor at age 17 to a small country church in Manchester, Kentucky.
He says it was a mystery to him that God would call him because at the time, Ergun didn't speak English very well and didn't fully understand the Scriptures. He felt that he was all alone because neither his mother, nor his grandmother, were Christians. But he gladly accepted the call, and led his brothers to Christ the same week of his salvation.
Islam Is Not A Peaceful Religion
As the son of a mwazein, Ergun had to learn the hadith (the sayings and traditions of Muhammed, the Prophet of Islam) in the Qur'an. In these teachings, Ergun says the central thesis of Islam does in fact have an essential tenet of militaristic conquest at its heart. The infidel, or unbeliever, must be converted or conquered. If the Muslim dies in such a struggle or declaration of war (jihad), he is promised immediate translation into the highest level of paradise. Therefore, when pressed most Muslims would say that Mohamed Ata is in heaven according to the Qur'anic teaching.
The Qur'an, supposedly from the mouth of Allah, takes a dim view of the non-believer and a strict view of jihad as a warfare against them. In Surah 2:190, Allah says, "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you. And slay them wherever you catch them." Physical warfare is an absolute necessity so that Allah is honored and worshipped. Jihad is one of the highest calls of life for a Muslim. "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and those who strive hard and fight in the cause of Allah with their wealth and lives." Surah 4.95
According to the doctrine of jihad there are three waves of jihad. The first wave is the shock -- which was Sept 11.
The second wave is to show a people that they are vulnerable. It has to be public. "Daniel Pearl was killed on videotape," says Ergun. There is no question that group who killed Pearl is a subgroup of the radical Muslim fundamental group, Mujahdeen.
The third wave is to humiliate your enemy, to "cut the legs out from under them." "Thank God President Bush responded as he did," Ergun says. "If he had not, the second wave would have been much, much worse than the first." The Koran teaches that if your enemy is weak -- conquer him. If he is strong -- respect him. That means they keep going until they meet with resistance.
When asked if he believes Osama bin Laden is still alive, Ergun says yes. "He is considered to be a martyr in their faith. If he were dead, they would be hailing him." Peace With Allah, Not Us
"I must take this opportunity to side with Pat," says Ergun. "He cannot take these hits (from the media and press) alone." Ergun says the word "Islam" means "peace with Allah" not "peace with us." "We are the infidels and therefore the enemy," says Ergun.
He further explains that when a Christian blows up an abortion clinic, he does that in spite of the teachings of Jesus Christ. "Muslims perform jihad because of the teachings of Muhammed," declares Ergun. "Make no mistake, they are at war with us and these are not just radical Muslims."
Osama bin Laden is a Sunni Muslim, not a Shiite, which is considered the more radical of the two. When bin Laden is on television, he is quoting the Qur'an. "It is difficult to take the Qur'an out of context," says Ergun. Even to the casual reader, jihad is more than just an intellectual exercise of struggle, but rather an engagement in battle and struggle and warfare with death as a conclusion for the Muslim blessing.
Muhammad echoed this conclusion in Hadith 4.73 "Muhammed said, "Know that paradise is under the shades of the sword." For the Muslim apologists who redact the terminology to indicate that fighting is perhaps an intellectual debate must read Surah 2:216, "Fighting is prescribed for you, and you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and that you love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows and you know not." It is impossible to determine that the text means anything but fighting in the traditional sense of combat.
A Muslim is a Muslim by birth, but many are illiterate. Therefore they must take the word of the imam, equivalent to a pastor, as truth. They cannot question the validity of what the imam says. With reference to the recent Gallup poll, "they hate us," says Ergun. "And they cannot make the distinction between an American and a Christian because of the way they are brought up culturally. When you say a man is a Turk, it is understood that he is Muslim."
Ergun believes that the United States did not finish the job in the Gulf War. He believes that we will not end the war on terrorism without including Saddam Hussein, who is the major fundraiser for Islam. "If we do not go after him, this will never end," he says. "He will continue the jihad."
Incredible Opportunity
But in the midst of this turmoil, Ergun says this is the most incredible opportunity to witness to Muslims. They are beginning to understand their religion. Many do not want to be part of the violence and are coming to Christ. The difference between reaching them and not reaching them depends on the teaching of grace.
"The single most important thing to do is teach on grace," he says. To Muslims, the intimacy of God is so new. Teach them that they don't have to live in fear of the "scales of Allah," which are seen as actual scales (2 Surah 4). For the Muslims who fear the scales that measure their eternal damnation if weighted heavier for evil than good, this is the only true eternal security they have.
Christians should also know that Allah and God are not the same. "No serious or intellectual Muslim would say that Allah has a Son, that He is a Triune, nor that He is personal," Ergun says. Allah is Creator and Judge. Christ's attributes are so totally different. He is loving, kind, gracious, and forgiving. As a Christian, Ergun is offended when he hears people say that God and Allah are the same. Many think getting to God is like getting to Chicago. You can get there by plane, train or auto. It doesn't matter what path you take, as long as you get there. Ergun calls this the "Oprahization" of American culture.
On October 19, 2001, Ergun spoke before the UN at the Subcommittee on Cultural Affairs. As an expert on Islam and one who speaks Arabic, he is being invited to participate in even more high-level projects on this area. There are only 20 former Muslims who are now preachers in America; there are only eight (and Ergun is one of them) who are professors of theology.
Of course, ridiculing Mad Mo could lead to your death in a country controlled by the Islamaniacs you desparately try to whitewash.
A quote from the book of Joshua regarding the Canaanite genocide commanded by God:
"And that day Joshua took Makkedah, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain: and he did to the king of Makkedah as he did unto the king of Jerico. Then Joshua passed from Makkedah, and all Israel with him, unto Libnah, and fought against Libnah: And the Lord delivered it also, and the king thereof, into the hand of Israel: and he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain in it” (Joshua 10:29-30)
Or, how about this beauty:
"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass” (1 Samuel 15:3)
While I'm sure that you wish for a Jesus who was ridiculing someone by infering their participation in homosexual acts (as you did in your two posts which were removed by the moderator), I can assure you that isn't what Jesus was about.
I am attempting to help others understand that the communistic atheist butchers of the 20th century, and the theologically oriented butchers of the middle ages didn't share a faith... but they shared one common trait which allowed them to brutalize their fellow men in unspeakable ways. They shared a fundamental disregard for the rights of their fellow men.
I had to reply to this one. If you look at the cultural and geopgraphical millieu that produced the philosophical emphasis on an individual actually having intrinsic value, you would find that Northern Europe was the location for this idea's origin. The primary philosophical underpinnings of Northern Europe in the 1500 and 1600's, when the Age of Enlightenment and the Age of Reason were in their infancy was the teachings of the Reformed Church.
If you examine the root message of the Gospel, this makes sense. The message there was that each person is so important to G-d that He gave himself up to save us, one lost sheep at a time. We are called to follow His example, care for each and ourselves the way that G-d in the flesh did (and does).
Just as this milleau produced scientific advancement (in studying the wonder of G-d's creation), so too did it produce political and economic freedom for all, on a scale unseen anywhere else at anytime.
I would go so far as to say that Biblically Fundamental Christianity is inseperable from respect for every individual as a beloved creation and child of G-d. That includes people that do not believe what is contained in G-d's word.
The Albigensian Crusade was a war against heretics. It existed soley because of the Church's insistence that all Christians follow it's theology! Who's ignorant of history?
And to say that those Christians of history that committed atrocities are "not really Christians," well I don't know what to say about that. Perhaps we should start insisting that abortionists are not "really" American? It would certainly make me feel better about my country. Who's argument is weak?
My apologies then...my bad
FreeGards
If you truly understood what Jesus was about you would not be an atheist so spare me your thoughts of what he might have meant.
I'm not sure if I understand you correctly.
Are you suggesting that "Biblically Fundamental Christianity" is a set of ideas which is requisite to respect for individuals?
If so, I would disagree. I would recognize a true understanding and adherence to the teachings of Jesus as compatible with the concept of individual rights, and in fact I would recognize the existence of rights and respect for them as the ONLY conclusions which could be drawn from his teachings. (in spite of the fact that all too many people claiming those teachings as a central influence in their lives, profoundly miss this point)
But I want to make it clear that I do not recognize the teachings of Jesus as the ONLY means by which this understanding may be derived. I hold no beliefs in any supreme being whatsoever, and yet I recognize rights as an objective moral truth, derived by reason.
No confusion.
Your posts 79 and 82 of this thread were removed by the moderator, for precisely the reasons specified.
No, and I'm sorry that I did not make it clearer. It would possible for a non-christian to have a respect for the rights of individuals (for example, an uncommonly well self-disciplined Objectivist). There may be other ethical systems that come to the conclusion that a Man, as an individual, is an end and not a means. I'm not aware of them, but I not a Cultural Antropolgy expert, either.
The point that I was really trying to make, is that if one were to call Jesus of Nazareth "Lord", that a requirement of that is love and respect for everyone individually, as a creation made in the image of the G-d you worship.
To act otherwise is a negation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Ahhh... dementia.
Now I understand your confusion.
I recognize that my moral claim to act in accordance with the dictates of my own will, is predicated upon my willingness to respect the same ability in others. Hence I recognize the initiation of force or fraud as immoral under all circumstances.
What reason do you have not to go out and kill some little girl?
If the only reason you don't kill little girls is because God says it is against his rules and he'll punish you... I'd suggest that your moral sense is shallow indeed.
Youre just a good person not to kill..how nice... I would hate to meet someone like you who wasnt nice and had no respect for the law because it was derived from men who looked at a greater being as a guide.
Yes.... I'm sure that's exactly what you meant with your smear.
Apparently you place the same level of emphasis on honesty as you place on the teachings of Jesus.
The reason you don't kill little girls, is because it is against the law?
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