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Common Creationist Arguments
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/Arguments/index.shtml ^

Posted on 03/08/2002 7:55:48 AM PST by JediGirl

Common Creationist Arguments

Religious Bigotry

"I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag, and to the Saviour, for whose Kingdom it stands, one Saviour, crucified, risen, and coming again, with life and liberty for all who believe."- Dan Quayle, participating in a modified Pledge of Allegiance at the "Reclaiming America" conference in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, 1994. Quoted from Eternal Hostility: The Struggle Between Theocracy and Democracy, by Frederick Clarkson. According to Dan Quayle and the other hate mongers at this conference, only those who believe deserve the right to life and liberty. I guess that means the rest of us can die in chains, just as we did in the Dark Ages.

Religious bigotry is at the heart of fundamentalism, and Christian fundamentalism is in turn the heart of the so-called "creation science" movement. In its various forms, creationist bigotry usually incorporates one or more of 3 basic premises:

  1. If evolution theory is wrong, then the only alternative is Biblical creationism. All dissimilar creation myths are invalid.

  2. The Bible is representative of all religious creation stories, and Christianity is representative of all "major" religions. Whenever someone speaks of "religion", "spirituality", and "mysticism" we should assume that he is talking about Christianity.

  3. Non-Christian beliefs are based on corrupted, immoral motivations, under the influence of Satan.

Every one of these premises is both indefensible and incredibly offensive, yet all of those assumptions are very common among creaionists, for whom it doesn't even seem to matter that their "scientific theory" would be the only theory in the history of science that requires faith in a particular religion.

Suggested Tactics

Educate Them About Other Religions. Some famous atheists have half-jokingly quipped in the past that "the solution to Christianity is education". While that may be a bit harsh, it is certainly fair to say that creationist misconceptions about the universality of their particular creation myth are best dispelled with information. Concrete information about the true beliefs of humanism (as opposed to the Christian fundamentalist strawman stereotype of selfish hedonists) and the specifics of other religions' creation myths (as opposed to the creationist assumption that they either follow Judaism or they're Satan worshippers) is the best way to break through a creationist's intellectual defense shield of xenophobia and religious egocentrism.

Examples follow:

"If creation theory has no independent basis, then why do all the world's religions have similar stories of the Creation and the Flood? Why do scientists insist on assuming that all of the world's religions are wrong? Evolution theory is nothing more than an organized assault upon religion."

This person confuses "religion" for "Christianity", by blindly assuming that every religion in the world is incompatible with evolution theory. In reality, many of the world's religions are quite compatible with evolution theory (some even provide support for it). Creationists who propose this argument are simply demonstrating ignorance of other religions. This is not surprising; throughout most of their history, Christians were not only reluctant to study other religions, but they actually tried to obliterate them by force, through torture, massacres, and destruction of cultural artifacts such as libraries and temples. Today, Christianity has generally improved upon its heinous past, and many Christians' value systems are quite similar to those of humanists. Such Christians no longer murder and torture "heretics", and some of them have even chosen to open their minds not only to science, but also to the richness and diversity of world history, as opposed to a narrow minded focus on European Christian history.

Progressive Christians tend to focus on Jesus' common-sense message of reciprocity, meaning that you should love your neighbour and treat others as you would have them treat you. This is known as the "Golden Rule", and while Christian egocentrics tend to act as though it is their exclusive intellectual property, versions of it are actually found in the ancient writings of virtually all the world's cultures. Of course, in order to live by this rule, they must downplay or refute the parts of the Bible which encourage intolerance and misogynism, sometimes by simply ignoring them and sometimes by arguing that the Golden Rule overrides them. The term "humanist Christian" is often thought of as an oxymoron, but that isn't necessarily the case; humanism and atheism are not synonymous. Humanism is about placing the good of humankind and the good of your fellow human above all else, and a humanist Christian could easily make the argument that the basic principles of humanism are highly compatible with the principles that Jesus tried to outline in the New Testament. However, unlike Jesus or God, humanism makes no value judgement on the basis of religion; it is equally accepting of Buddhists, Taoists, Christians, Hindus, Wiccans, Muslims, and others, including atheists. It is the only system of values which is so broadly inclusive, and therefore, it is the only system of values upon which governments should be based.

However, this means it is also anathema to certain Christians (read: right-wing fundamentalist fanatics), who have chosen instead to close their minds, cling to the past, and fight a seemingly never-ending propaganda war against science and humanism (some, like Pat Robertson, still defend the morality of Old Testament atrocities such as the slaughter of Palestinian women and children).

I remember once watching one of those "political talk shows" and seeing a Christian fundamentalist explaining that school prayer was necessary in order to introduce "spirituality" to children (for some reason, she felt it was necessary for the state to perform this function, rather than the parents). When queried about the obvious religious bigotry inherent in this approach, and its implications for religious freedom of non-Christians, she confidently replied that since all of the world's religions from Judaism to Islam to Christianity are very similar, sharing the same God, it wouldn't be a serious problem. And if they insisted on being difficult, they could always simply "opt out" (and in so doing, stand apart from the rest of the class, which is a great way to make a child feel welcome).

I remember being disgusted at her attitude and amazed at the fact that no one else on the panel seemed to take offense at her arrogance and bigotry. This kind of obtuse navel-gazing ignorance is a classic European cultural mindset which has unfortunately been adopted by many Americans (for example, they know the "yin/yang" symbol, but they have no idea that it is actually derived from the Taoist religion; they think it's just a "Chinese philosophy thing", or that it has something to do with kung fu).

I suggest that Christian egocentrists go to the library and borrow a book on the world's other religions before presuming to speak for them. There are billions of Hindus and Buddhists in the world, and none of them would want their children to feel like outcasts for not participating in school prayer to the Christian God. Hindus are even polytheistic, even though Christian egocentrists tend to believe that monotheism is somehow "more advanced" than polytheism (in reality, both monotheistic and polytheistic religions are traceable back to the dawn of recorded history). There are at least five different types of creation myth:

  1. Creation through Emergence: a pre-existing chaotic universe or netherworld gains form and substance in a gradual process. This type of creation myth is usually suggestive of slow maturation, or growth, as opposed to a single titanic event. The process might even be on-going and eternal (much like evolution). Zuni religious writings describe "unfinished creatures", slowly developing and growing "more manlike". Australian aboriginal creation myths describe primitive human-like creatures haphazardly forming out of plants and animal parts and then being moulded into finished humans by the gods. These types of religions (of which the American Navajo religion is yet another example) tend to emphasize the spirit of communion with the land and with the animals, since we came from them. This is a sharp contrast with Christianity and its past doctrines of human dominion over the animal kingdom.

  2. Creation through Birth: the Earth or the universe is quite literally born, either from a primordial mother or from two divine parents. The Aztec and Babylonian religions are examples of this type of creation myth.

  3. Creation from a Cosmic Egg: the universe hatches from an egg. This egg may be created by the gods, or it may be a god, or it may contain gods, along with the raw material necessary for the universe. The Chinese god Pan Gu was hatched from such an egg. In the Hindu religion, the universe was created through the breaking of a cosmic egg, which had shone as brilliantly as a sun and from which Brahma emerged.

  4. Creation by "Earth divers": the Earth is retrieved from primordial waters. It may be either retrieved intact or in pieces which are to be assembled by god(s). Many ancient central European tribal religions incorporated this type of creation myth.

  5. Creation by Supreme Being: a deity predates the universe. His power is absolute, and he creates the universe from his mind. Supreme deities are usually sky gods, for which the remoteness of the heavens generates awe and a sense of inscrutability among believers. Creationists invariably assume this to be the only type of creation myth.

"Let us break through some of the inhibitions that have existed to talk together across the flimsy lines of separation of faith, to talk together, to study together, to pray together, and ultimately to sing together His Holy name."- Senator Joseph Lieberman, speaking at Fellowship Chapel in Detroit while running for Vice President, Aug. 27, 2000 (like many Judeo-Christian bigots, he assumes all faiths share the same God). Quoted from AA News #808.

If you examine the world's various creation myths, you may notice a very interesting fact: many of them are more easily reconciled with biology and cosmology than you might expect. In fact, the "Creation through Emergence" story is startlingly similar to evolution theory, and "Creation from a Cosmic Egg" is strongly reminiscent of Big Bang theory. Moreover, a very common thread in various mythologies is the pre-existent chaos, in which a universe already exists before the "Creation" but it is formless and dark, and the gods merely take this pre-existing matter and transform it into the modern world. This is a sharp contrast to the creationist assumption that creation myths are all predicated upon a supreme being who creates the universe with a mere thought.

Does evolution theory represent an "assault upon religion?" Not necessarily. It does, however, represent the scientific conclusion that Biblical fundamentalism has no foundation whatsoever in logic and observation. Creationists interpret this as an attack against "religion" because they think they stand for all of the world's religions, despite their ideological differences and their long history of trying to wipe out those other religions.

"The only way to arrive at evolution theory is from a close-minded secular, humanistic mindset."

And why is humanism bad, particularly when we speak of science? Humanism, as it applies to science, is the notion that it is possible to understand the universe through the reasoning faculties of the human mind. It is part of the philosophical foundation of science! How can a legitimate scientific theory not be based on a humanistic mindset? The fact that a theory is "humanistic" is hardly a condemnation, but creationists are so accustomed to speaking of "humanism" in a perjorative sense that they instinctively assume everyone else sees the term in the same negative way.

The scientific method leaves no room for creationist nonsense. Scientists are supposed to confine their analyses strictly to the bounds of observation and reason. Scientists are supposed to assume that every phenomenon in the universe has a natural mechanism. Scientists are supposed to discount supernatural explanations for observed phenomena. That is the scientific method, in which all phenomena in the universe are grouped into those we understand and those we have yet to understand. There is no third option of supernatural explanations, nor should there be. If supernatural explanations were acceptable scientific explanations for all unknowns, then mankind would never have developed any science at all.

Scientists are often accused of being "close-minded" for doing this. The term "close-minded" has a perjorative implication, but it is a relative term. When we say that others are "close-minded", we usually mean that they are close-minded to whatever we're trying to push on them. Scientists are close-minded to the supernatural, but they are open-minded to observations and rational theories. Mystics, on the other hand, are open minded to mysticism, pseudoscience, and the supernatural, but they are close-minded to the scientific method. This contrast of competing philosophies is nothing new, but an increasingly large number of mystics want to upset the balance. They want to force scientists to consider supernatural theories alongside natural mechanisms; in effect, they want to destroy science by removing the scientific method and replacing it with the methods of mysticism.

"Evolutionists are just atheists who want to believe that there's no God so that they won't have to obey His laws, even though they know the truth, deep down. In fact, the decay of family values, the explosion of pornography, and the general decline in societal mores can be directly attributed to humanist teachings such as evolution theory and moral relativism, which basically encourages people to follow their own selfish interests instead of obeying traditional values and morals."

This is by far the most offensive, arrogant, insulting, and hateful creationist argument in existence: religious bigotry at its worst. If you are a religious person and you don't see what's wrong with this statement, then try asking yourself how you would feel if someone accused all Jews or all Hindus of being immoral and selfish. Try asking yourself how you would feel if someone assumed that all Buddhists were secretly Christians but were feverishly trying to deny the truth to themselves. Do you see the problem? This argument could simply be dismissed as fallacious, on the grounds that morality has nothing to do with the scientific validity of evolution theory. However, that would probably do little to silence the critics, whose attacks on evolution theory often start with this bizarre "moral argument".

"We're going to bring back God and the Bible and drive the gods of secular humanism right out of the public schools of America."- Pat Buchanan, at an anti-gay rally in Des Moines, Iowa, February 11, 1996 (it apparently doesn't occur to him that secular humanism is a philosophy rather than a religion, and as such, has no "gods", nor does it occur to him that in order to drive secular humanism out of public schools, they will have to abolish all science classses).

For some reason it is considered perfectly acceptable to hold bigoted views of atheists, particularly in America, where the flames of religious hatred are fanned daily by hate-mongers such as Pat Robertson and the rest of the so-called "right-wing fundamentalist movement". Religious leaders are fond of saying that atheism is every bit as much a religion as Christianity, Judaism, or Hinduism, in an obvious attempt to contradict the secular interpretation of atheism as an absence of religion. But if they truly feel that atheism is a religion, then why don't they treat atheists with the same religious tolerance that most of them preach for the "real" religions? Why is it acceptable to accuse atheists as a group of being amoral, or selfish, or hedonistic, or anti-family, or decadent?

If you listen carefully, you will find that anti-atheist hatred positively drips from the mouth of every preacher. Every minister. Every religious television show. If there is a modern Devil according to the fundamentalists, its name is secularism. Secularism is held responsible for everything from violence to divorce, rape, war, drug use, and any other imaginable social problem. It is the convenient scapegoat upon which every societal problem can be summarily blamed, without evidence or argument.

Atheists are Public Enemy #1 according to this mindset. If secularism is deemed responsible for everything the fundamentalists consider unpleasant or undesirable, then it's only natural to blame the members of this "cult": the atheists. It doesn't matter that there is no statistical variation in the crime rates between atheists and Christians. It doesn't matter that atheists are actually less likely to divorce than Christians. All that matters is that atheists think differently, and the persistent Crusade mentality of the fundamentalist deems all other systems of thought to be targets of enmity, hatred, and if possible, obliteration.

The historical fact is that these religious zealots are throwing stones from glass houses. The history of religion is anything but a noble one, and the union of church and state (which is what the creationists are pushing for, with the agenda to insinuate their religion into the schools) has invariably resulted in widespread oppression and human rights violations. In fact, the union of church and state continues to cause such problems today, as seen most dramatically in the resurgent Islamic fundamentalist governments of the Middle East, where women are being stoned to death for committing adultery or trying to find work. See the Religion and Morality page if you're interested in knowing more about this subject.

"You cannot produce one conclusive piece of evidence to prove the theory of evolution, yet you deny creationism! You are clearly being dogmatic."

This argument is sometimes accompanied by gratuitous publicity stunts, eg. there's at least one person offering a reward for anyone who can produce a piece of scientific evidence which he regards as conclusive proof of evolution. However, the basic premise falls apart on three levels.

  1. It implicitly assumes that if evolution theory cannot be "proven", then creationism wins by default. This is a false dilemma fallacy (artificially narrowing the choices). Even if you refuse to accept the overwhelming evidence for evolution theory, who's to say that the Earth must have been created in six days by one supreme being? Why six days? Why the one specific god described in the Jewish Bible? Why couldn't it have been created through a collaborative effort by many gods in a pantheistic religion? Why couldn't it have been created by the universal energy described by Taoist-style religions? Why couldn't it have been created by the pink unicorn? Why couldn't Earth itself be a god, as described in some of the "Earth mother" religions? Christians have a nasty tendency to forget that theirs is not the only religion in the world.

  2. It demands "proof" of a scientific theory. However, the act of demanding "proof" merely betrays ignorance of scientific methods. Unlike mathematical theories, scientific theories are not "proven". Competing theories are judged on their consistency with observation, and the best theory wins (science itself is an evolutionary process in that respect). If science demanded absolute "proof" of theories, then we wouldn't have any theories at all. Even the theory of gravity can't be "proven"; it can only be shown to be consistent with observation.

  3. The person who makes this argument sets himself up as the sole arbiter of any evidence that comes his way. He doesn't want to let "qualified biologists" judge (no surprise, since they won't produce the conclusions he's looking for), nor does he explain exactly what would qualify as conclusive evidence. By using himself as the arbiter and refusing to describe the proof he's looking for, he deliberately sets an impossible standard.

"I have a standing offer of $250,000 to anyone who can give any empirical evidence (scientific proof) for evolution. My $250,000 offer demonstrates that the hypothesis of evolution is nothing more than a religious belief."- Kent Hovind (notice how he doesn't realize there's no such thing as "scientific proof")

After being pressed for a full explanation of how to collect the $250,000 reward, he clarified his position: "In order to collect the money you must 'Prove beyond reasonable doubt that the process of evolution (The universe came into being by itself by purely natural processes (known as evolution) so that no appeal to the supernatural is needed.) is the only possible way the observed phenomena (the universe, planets, life and mankind) could have come into existence.' If you want everyone to pay for this silly theory of evolution to be taught then the burden of proof is on you."- Kent Hovind. Notice how he thinks evolution theory deals with the origins of the universe rather than the gradual change of biological structures (gross strawman fallacy), and also notice how he thinks a valid scientific theory must be the "only possible" explanation for a phenomenon (gross misrepresentation of scientific method). In reality, a valid theory is the one which most closely fits the facts, and Occam's Razor is used as a tie-breaker if necessary. Since an infinite number of theories can be generated for any given phenomenon (hence the need for Occam's Razor), it is impossible to fulfill his requirements for any scientific theory, even the theory of gravity.

This kind of argument is a classic example of the religious egocentrism that we have sadly come to expect from creationists. It assumes that creationism logically follows if evolution theory cannot be "proven" to their satisfaction. It contains the utterly absurd assumption that if there were no such thing as evolution theory, then a researcher would independently arrive at Biblical creationism, even if he were not schooled in Judeo-Christian thought! In the end, it is a mere rhetorical ploy, barely worthy of rebuttal.

As an aside, the tactic of demanding proof and then setting oneself up as the arbiter of that proof is also used by Holocaust deniers. If you are faced with this ploy (on the part of either creationists or holocaust deniers), a good tactic is to simply ask "what would you accept as evidence?" If a subject change is attempted, simply force the subject back to that central question: "what would you accept as evidence?"

You may be surprised to discover that when pushed, your opponent will have no answer. He will either become evasive or suggest a nonsensical form of evidence such as "direct observation of the moment of abiogenesis, four billion years ago", as if a time machine could be built for this purpose. Scientific theories are based on analysis of whatever evidence we can obtain, not an obstinate insistence upon particular forms of evidence which we can't obtain.

The natural creationist objection is to claim that indirect observations "don't count", but in reality, despite their ignorant expectations, countless scientific observations are indirect in nature. For example, we know that other stars in the universe have planets indirectly (through observation of gravitational perturbations) even though we can't travel there and see these planets for ourselves. We know that the Sun is powered by nuclear fusion indirectly (through observation of its mass, chemical composition, and output) even though we can't observe this process directly. We know about electrons indirectly (through their interaction with other forms of matter and energy) even though they're too small to see, even with a microscope. And finally, we know that life began on Earth billions of years ago (through observation of fossil patterns as well as geographical distribution of modern species) even though we can't travel back through time and watch it happen.



TOPICS: Miscellaneous; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: crevolist; sasu
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To: Dimensio
I will answer your question with your response: I will get back to you with my research. :)
61 posted on 03/08/2002 10:12:13 AM PST by Secret Agent Man
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To: Secret Agent Man
Hey! Way to go. I'm glad you can argue this from a scientific perspective cause I surely can not. It's not my discipline.

With all of our so-called knowledge and "enlightenment," we can not specifically explain how the Egyptians created the pyramids with the technology they had at that time. If we can't do this, which we know was created by man, how much harder would it be to think that man is a made being, not some act of random chance? But anyway, you da man!

62 posted on 03/08/2002 10:14:20 AM PST by rdb3
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To: RadioAstronomer
Got any examples?

Yeah, evolution.

63 posted on 03/08/2002 10:16:30 AM PST by rdb3
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To: Harrison Bergeron
You have mail ;)
64 posted on 03/08/2002 10:17:52 AM PST by general_re
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To: rdb3
If we can't do this, which we know was created by man, how much harder would it be to think that man is a made being, not some act of random chance? But anyway, you da man!

Good point. And the creator of man, how could he have come into being by random chance? Obviously the creator has a creator!
65 posted on 03/08/2002 10:18:34 AM PST by Dimensio
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To: f.Christian
"...trust and pray God will be the winner!"

So... when you pray for God, to Whom do you pray?

66 posted on 03/08/2002 10:19:09 AM PST by Harrison Bergeron
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To: rdb3
Hey! Way to go. I'm glad you can argue this from a scientific perspective cause I surely can not. It's not my discipline.

You may want to do a little research before extolling his arguments.

67 posted on 03/08/2002 10:21:11 AM PST by RadioAstronomer
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To: rdb3
Yeah, evolution.

I agree with your support of evolution. :)

68 posted on 03/08/2002 10:22:10 AM PST by RadioAstronomer
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To: Dimensio
Obviously the creator has a creator!

Has anyone you know ever said that He didn't? I didn't think so.

69 posted on 03/08/2002 10:22:39 AM PST by rdb3
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To: Harrison Bergeron
You will only find God if you seek righteousness---doesn't that make sense--God is righteousness vs. hubris!
70 posted on 03/08/2002 10:24:32 AM PST by f.Christian
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To: rdb3
"...we can not specifically explain how the Egyptians created the pyramids with the technology they had at that time. "

Yes, we can. Yes, we did. At this time, there at least three plausible theories, the current favorite being the ramp and pulley method. The pyramids lie only about a mile from the nearest quarry, and the slabs from which the stones were cut are in plain view, as are the paths on which the stones were dragged.

Bad science and lack of knowledge are a terrible combination.

71 posted on 03/08/2002 10:25:57 AM PST by Harrison Bergeron
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To: rdb3
Has anyone you know ever said that He didn't? I didn't think so.

You are a bit presumptious. I have heard the claim, many times, that everything in the universe requires a Creator -- except the original Creator for reasons that were never adequately explained. I wouldn't have raised the issue if I didn't think that there was a dispute anywhere.
72 posted on 03/08/2002 10:27:37 AM PST by Dimensio
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To: Dimensio
Oh dear, the common fallacy of mixing evolution and abiogenesis. Sorry, but evolution is a theory dealing with existing life forms, it makes no claims as to where that life originated. The hypothesis of life emerging from a reaction in a pool of biochemicals is not a part of evolution and falsifying it will not falsify evolution.

Interesting. From the literature I've read, abiogenesis is linked to evolutionary theory...at least one-way...abiogenesis "just happened" and then evolution took over. What you are saying, then, is that the study of life's ultimate beginnings (abiogenesis) has nothing to do with evolution? And if it does, it is only from abiogenesis-to-evolution, not evolution-to-abiogenesis?

The first life forms could have formed that way,

Supposition #1

or they could have been somehow seeded from space

Supposition #2 - But instead of dealing with the problems facing the evolutionary theories on how life began on earth the problem is shifted "out there".

or they could have been zap-poofed into existence by some divine entity (though the latter case could never be scientifically tested),

And abiogenesis can? Look at the experiments attempting to "recreate" life-from-nothing. Ultimately they stem from an intelligence.

but none of those methods would have any bearing on the validity of evolution -- evolution works on the life forms regardless of how the first life forms got on the planet.

Again, out of curiosity...what is the evidence you refer to that supports the statement of "...evolution works on the life forms regardless..."? What daily kinds of evidences are there?

You mentioned the "old straw man" argument, I would like to point out that many "straw men" exist on the side of evolutionary theory (for example, switching the meaning of evolution to that of natural selection...which Creationists agree with).

I also notice that the "seeds from outer space" idea is putting faith in an "entity" of some form or fashion that is "out there" somewhere, and typically it is this belief that is turned to upon finding the problems of evolutionary theory to difficult to deal with on earth.

At least the Creationists claim to have an eye-witness who recorded the events for them. But then, trusting in the Bible is another issue that even many Christians have a problem with. (As seen by compromising their beliefs because the culture thinks those beliefs arcane, silly, insert adjective here....)

73 posted on 03/08/2002 10:30:19 AM PST by Elijah27
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To: Harrison Bergeron
At this time, there at least three plausible theories. . .

Ummmm, it appears that you still can't.

74 posted on 03/08/2002 10:31:14 AM PST by rdb3
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To: rdb3
Ummmmm.... read a book.
75 posted on 03/08/2002 10:34:12 AM PST by Harrison Bergeron
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To: Dimensio
You are a bit presumptious.

Okay, here we go.

I'm not being anything. I asked a question that you virtually ignored. Now you are making assumptions as to my person.

Don't!

If you want to know something, ASK! I'll answer it to the best of my abilities.

The mystery as to where God "comes from" will be revealed, in time. Time. It appears that this would be right up your alley. And I can prove that.

76 posted on 03/08/2002 10:34:38 AM PST by rdb3
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To: Dimensio
AUSTRALOPITHECUS AFARENSIS - commonly know as "LUCY" - Discovered in 1974 by Donald Johanson was a half complete skeleton he named after the Beetle's song "Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds". A year later 13 more similar skeletons were found. Remarkably the skull was even more ape-like than other australopithecenes.

In his book "Lucy, The beginnings of Human Kind," Johanson said: I had no problem with Lucy. She was so odd that there was no question about her not being human. She simply wasn't. She was too little. Her brain was way too small and her jaw was the wrong shape. Her teeth pointed away from the human condition and back in the direction of apes. The jaws had the same primitive features." On the basis of a hip and knee joint found later, however, Johanson "decided" that Lucy did walk in an upright bipedal fashion. He thus deduced Lucy was an ancestor of man, as well as an ancestor of A. africanus (the original Australopithecus). However, there are conflicting reports as to whether Lucy did actually walk upright and there is also evidence that people walked up-rightly before the time of Lucy, disqualifying her as an evolutionary ancestor man (Parker, 1991).

APES UP FROM?, DONALD JOHANSON, "At any rate, modem gorillas, orangs and chimpanzees spring out of nowhere, as it were. They are here today; they have no yesterday...., LUCY, p.363 (Seems this denies classic evolution to me, it has to be traceable back to a rock somewhere...)

On November 20, 1986 Donald Johanson, discoverer of the celebrated "Lucy" fossil, lectured on the campus of the University, of Missouri, Kansas City. In the course of the lecture Dr. Johanson showed a slide which suggested that Lucy's knee joint had an angle much like a selected human knee joint. In the discourse which followed the lecture the discoverer admitted that he had found that portion of the fossil 60 to 70 meters [over 200 feet] lower in the strata and two to three kilometers [1.24 to 1.86 miles] away. Anatomical similarity appeared to be his basis for placing it with the rest of Lucy's skeletal remains. Her arm/leg length ratio, listed at 83.9%, is admittedly based on an estimated leg length. The left pelvic bone is complete, but "distorted" according to her discoverer. Negative evidence relating to Lucy's claim as a genuine hominid continues to mount. Her chimp-shaped skull of only 400 cc's and many osteological features certainly indicate that walking erect was very unlikely. Possible erect locomotion is indicated by only one angled view of her pelvis, and the pelvis was distorted when found. A long list of ape features are indicated by the skeletal remains.18 This specimen had curved fingers and toes for tree climbing, an ape-type angle of the shoulder socket, a chimp-like iliac blade, an ape ankle bone (talus). The valgus angle of the knees is similar to the orangutan and the spider monkey, a feature which is also found in man. Strong chimp affinities are shown in her hip joint. She may well have walked with flat feet like the chimpanzee.19 According to J. Cherfas her ankle bone (talus) angles backward like a gorilla. This makes it impossible for her to locomote bipedally. Zihnman called our attention to the fact that there is astonishing similarity between Lucy and the pygmy chimps.20

18 - Cherfas, J., 1983. Trees Have Made Man Upright, New Scientist 97:172-178
19 - Ibid., p.174
20 - Zihlman, A., 1984. Pygmy Chimps, People And The Pundits, New Scientist, 104:39-40.

77 posted on 03/08/2002 10:37:45 AM PST by Secret Agent Man
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To: Harrison Bergeron
Ummmmm.... read a book.

That's a great idea! Thanks for suggesting it. You never can read too much.

But let me also ask you to read a book as well: THE NEW TESTAMENT.

You suggest I read one. I suggest you read one. Fair enough?

78 posted on 03/08/2002 10:38:41 AM PST by rdb3
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To: Elijah27
"Oh dear, the common fallacy of mixing evolution and abiogenesis. Sorry, but evolution is a theory dealing with existing life forms, it makes no claims as to where that life originated. The hypothesis of life emerging from a reaction in a pool of biochemicals is not a part of evolution and falsifying it will not falsify evolution. "

Interesting. From the literature I've read, abiogenesis is linked to evolutionary theory...at least one-way...abiogenesis "just happened" and then evolution took over.


Well that's a possibly hypothesis, but it's extending beyond the scope of evolution. Just like you said, the speculation of some is that abiogenesis "just happened" -- and what occured after abiogenesis, not before or during, was evolution. In other words, falsifying abiogenesis will not falsify evolution.

What you are saying, then, is that the study of life's ultimate beginnings (abiogenesis) has nothing to do with evolution? And if it does, it is only from abiogenesis-to-evolution, not evolution-to-abiogenesis?

Yes, the ultimate beginnings of life is irrelevant to evolution. Abiogenesis as an explanation for all life on earth would require a mechanism like evolution for the life being as diversified as it is now, but evolution does not require that the life have ultimately originated through abiogenesis.

"The first life forms could have formed that way,"

Supposition #1


Do note that I'm just offering possible "example" explanations without endorsing anything. Also note that my list should not be considered exhaustive.

"or they could have been somehow seeded from space"

Supposition #2 - But instead of dealing with the problems facing the evolutionary theories on how life began on earth the problem is shifted "out there".


How life began on earth is not a problem facing evolutionary theories -- how life began on earth is not relevant to evolutionary theories. A hypothesis that life was seeded from space would need to expand on how those life forms in space originated and how they got to earth, but such an explanation would be a matter independant of evolution.

"or they could have been zap-poofed into existence by some divine entity (though the latter case could never be scientifically tested),"

And abiogenesis can? Look at the experiments attempting to "recreate" life-from-nothing. Ultimately they stem from an intelligence.


Er, the problem with testing divine creation is that it involves the "supernatural" (at least until science can come up with a naturalistic explanation for dieties and their abilities) and as such it falls outside the realm of science. Abiogenesis can be scientifically tested, and it has been tested. The results, positive or negative, might reflect on its validity, but not its testability.

"but none of those methods would have any bearing on the validity of evolution -- evolution works on the life forms regardless of how the first life forms got on the planet."

Again, out of curiosity...what is the evidence you refer to that supports the statement of "...evolution works on the life forms regardless..."? What daily kinds of evidences are there?


That would be a seperate matter, though I could point to evolution of a bacteria culture becoming immune to a specific anti-bacterial agent through mutation (that's a pretty small-scale example but it is the only one I can think of off of the top of my head). My point was that evolutionary theory deals with the life forms that are already there, it is not about how those life forms ultimately came into being.

I also notice that the "seeds from outer space" idea is putting faith in an "entity" of some form or fashion that is "out there" somewhere, and typically it is this belief that is turned to upon finding the problems of evolutionary theory to difficult to deal with on earth.

I never claimed to hold to the "seeds from outer space" theory. I was pointing out that it, along with a number of other possible explanations for life origins, can be presented and none of them have any bearing on the validity (ie true or false) of evolution.
79 posted on 03/08/2002 10:50:29 AM PST by Dimensio
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To: Ward Smythe
"Under the terms of the 1st Amendment, why would you find an affirmation of faith disturbing? Seriously."

I would find it disturbing not because it isn't free speech which it is (and more power to one for saying it) but because of the allusions it makes to our Pledge Of Allegiance which is not religion specific. To an outsider not familiar with the ways of your faith it certainly could appear as though it is a replacement for the United States Pledge Of Allegiance.

Put it in these terms: Take an American Flag with the stars and stripes, keep the stripes but replace the Stars with holy crosses. I am a Christian but I could never support nor worship such a flag as I would consider it a mockery of the U.S. flag, no matter how noble or worthy the intentions of said flag's creator. Similarly, a pledge of faith that uses the same structure (and in some areas the same verbage) as the United States Pledge of Allegiance, in my view makes a mockery of our official pledge of allegiance.

This is like the "One Nation...Indivisble" bru-ha-ha that erupted a few weeks ago, only in reverse. Many compained that it made a mockery of our Pledge by taking God out of it. Well in the opinion of some, which I would be one, this pledge makes a mockery of our pledge by injecting Christianity into it and taking our government out of it.

Under the 1st Ammendment of our great nation, you are entitled to your pledge and I find nothing personally wrong with advocating your faith and celebrating Christianity. I just wish the verbage was more original, tactful, and didn't blur the lines between an official government pledge and a celebration of one specific kind of faith.

80 posted on 03/08/2002 10:54:57 AM PST by Metal4Ever
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