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Renewables are great - for powering fantasies
The Dallas Morning News ^ | 3-24-02 | James Glassman

Posted on 03/24/2002 2:09:05 AM PST by Oldeconomybuyer

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To: Charliehorse
"The coming widespread use of the hybrid power source in automobiles (such as Toyoto's Prius which now gets more than 50 miles per gallon in town and on the open road) is more efficient than fuel cells and will be cheaper."

I rather doubt these hybrids will ever make it into widespread useage without the imposition of draconian measures forcing their adoption. The problems with highly fuel efficient automobiles are cost and utility. You can buy cars today that get high gas mileage. Most sit unpurchased on dealer show rooms. Algore was found of saying in the debates that automakers was eager to make 80 MPG cars. The problem is that consumers aren't eager to buy them. They're small and underpowered.

21 posted on 03/24/2002 3:48:46 AM PST by DugwayDuke
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To: HHFi
I have a surefire way to make wind power economical-have the government pay me to go fishing every day. You could light up New York City with the wind that blows whenever I am on the lake. The strange thing is that the wind stops when I quit fishing, so I guess that I will have to fish 24 hours a day.
22 posted on 03/24/2002 3:55:46 AM PST by yawningotter
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To: snopercod
I think the current popular support for fuel cell technology is idiotic. Nuclear and fossil fuels are our current best bets for power generation.

Sometimes, however, renewable technologies can be employed locally for good effect--low head hydrodynamic is the best example which pops to mind.

23 posted on 03/24/2002 4:00:18 AM PST by dinodino
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Comment #24 Removed by Moderator

To: Rubber Ducky
Oil has, at most, two more decades to be king.

Let's see. This was said prior to WW II. It gained popularity during the Carter oil "crisis."

It now surfaces on FR, where I thought most people knew better.

It is nothing but "Barbara Streisand."

25 posted on 03/24/2002 4:06:44 AM PST by Budge
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To: Oldeconomybuyer
My vote is for nuclear. It's clean, reliable, and effective.
26 posted on 03/24/2002 4:13:41 AM PST by RadioAstronomer
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To: calpowercrisis; ernest_at_the_beach
Semi-related article
27 posted on 03/24/2002 4:15:39 AM PST by randita
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To: Budge
There were one or two ( tag team? ) newer members who kept referring us to a website that promised all sorts of breakthroughs in wind-powered generators. Claiming they were now competitive with oil-fired steam plants.

What they didn't mention was the wind's variability and unreliable nature.... among other things.

I certainly don't oppose alternative types of power generation, I just know from 30-plus years of watching it that it's usually too costly, too unreliable, or too complicated to compete with oil, gas, hydroelectric or nuclear power on a large scale.

28 posted on 03/24/2002 4:16:53 AM PST by backhoe
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To: Rubber Ducky
Oil has, at most, two more decades to be king.

Another urban legend.

29 posted on 03/24/2002 4:36:38 AM PST by Labyrinthos
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To: Oldeconomybuyer
The most efficient and yes the least polluting means of generating electricity is (gasp) nuclear power.

One reason nuclear power has been not our main meansd of producing electricity (aside from the kooks in birkenstocks waving signs saying "split wood not atoms") is that every nuclear reactor operating in the US is a one off design.

France, which produces some 20% of its electricity from nuclear power, used a basic single design for its reactors. Yes, there were improvements in succeeding models, but the basic engineering is much the same for all plants. This allows for better training of operators and lower construction costs.

Current computer assisted design technology and state of the art engineering could allow the production of very efficient, easy to operate and SAFE nuclear plants. However, the required mountain of government paperwork and the environmentatist wackos making every attempt to block the construction of nuclear plants will keep us chained to fossil fuels for a long time.

30 posted on 03/24/2002 4:55:13 AM PST by The Great RJ
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To: backhoe
What they didn't mention was the wind's variability and unreliable nature.... among other things.

Back in the late '70s a rather wealthy fellow put up a wind generator just off 45th St. and a block off the seawall in Galveston behind his home. Nice breeze most of the time. It proved to be so ineffieicnt that it is no longer there.

31 posted on 03/24/2002 5:14:19 AM PST by Budge
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To: The Great RJ
If I understand correctly, radioactivity DECREASES over time, so what man does is gather naturally occuring radioactive materials and use the decay process of a large quantity to produce power. This should mean the enviroment is actually improved , since fewer trees need to be cut, oils wells drilled, windmills erected, etc.

I think part of the desire for renewables is the desire to be free of the monthly utility bills; in my case ,the government allows me to use a large enough land area that wind-driven generators, biomass gas converters, alcohol stills, solar panels, and low-head hydroelectric turbines COULD provide ALL the energy my family could use. Of course, the initial costs of construction of all these things would be many times more than the cost of purchased energy.

I say , allows me to use, BECAUSE, if I do not pay property taxes every six months on the land and improvements like buildings and energy gathering devices, the gov't will send a man with a gun toi take it away from me. (This is why property taxes are a great evil;I pay tax on my earnings,tax again on my purchases, and yet more tax for permission to keep my purchases.)

32 posted on 03/24/2002 5:16:25 AM PST by hoosierham
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To: Charliehorse
Many arguments for fuel cell powered vehicles miss your point that you have to use energy to create hydrogen, more than you will get back. The overall process is fairly efficient, better than a gasoline engine, but still the fuel cell is more of a storage battery than a power source.

The problem, as cod aptly points out in post #9, is the storage and transport of hydrogen is problematic at best and frought with danger. Hydrogen is very light (it makes good dirigibles, except for the transport thing) so it is hard to carry enough poundage to get significant range.

33 posted on 03/24/2002 5:29:01 AM PST by HangThemHigh
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To: hoosierham
The cheapest alternative is hydroelectric but until we get the envirals out of the way, the development is not going to be made.
34 posted on 03/24/2002 5:34:41 AM PST by meenie
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To: Rubber Ducky
"I notice the article completely left out nuclear which, while not renewable"

Except, of course, using breeder reactors, which are even more 'evil' than the ordinary sort. Just ask Jimmy "Nu-cu-lar" Carter.

--Boris

35 posted on 03/24/2002 5:36:02 AM PST by boris
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To: Wonder Warthog
"Which is exactly why the "hydrogen economy" is an important feature of the total energy package--STORAGE and transmission of energy with hydrogen solves your "demand" problem. "Load-balancing" then becomes an inherent part of the transmission system. It also is more efficient for transmission over long distances, and works for nuclear as well (no more need for load-balancing gas turbines--just design the nuke plant with a larger capacity factor)."

Hydrogen is just a big storage battery--which must be charged by electrolyzing water using fossil fuels or nuclear plants.

Forget the middleman and go directly to all-electric vehicles as a thought experiment. No longer can you load-balance with, e.g., hydrogen production. The extra generating capacity you would need to supply all of the vehicles in the U.S. is 500,000 megawatts, roughly 500 brand-new 1,000 megawatt nuclear plants. With hydrogen, the situation is WORSE, since electrolyzers run at ~70% efficiency (tops) meaning you would need ~714,000 megawatts.

--Boris

36 posted on 03/24/2002 5:40:56 AM PST by boris
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To: meenie
"The cheapest alternative is hydroelectric"

Possibly, but all of the feasible hydro sources are already fully exploited, and Mr. Clinton did blow up a few.

--Boris

37 posted on 03/24/2002 5:41:56 AM PST by boris
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To: snopercod
"I can only begin to list all the safety hazards of dealing with LH2."

Don't forget that it is 11 times less dense (as a liquid) than plain old gasoline. It delivers 3 times as much energy per pound but that still leaves you 11/3 = 3.6 times LESS efficient (volumetrically) than gas. In other words, for the same range your fuel tank must be almost 4 times larger.

If you try to use compressed hydrogen gas, it becomes even more absurd.

--Boris

38 posted on 03/24/2002 5:44:51 AM PST by boris
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To: boris
Gov't rules have prohibited many small-scale hydro plants ,for instance a creek of some size runs ALONG one side of my property, but I may not even get rocks out of it without gov't permits these days, much less build a hydro-powered generator.Out West, many areas suffer(ed)? under prohibition of private hydro plants because of utility "rights" to all hydro power. The REA mandated? destruction of private wind-powered generators as a condition of hooking up to the new rural electric co-op lines in the past. Not unlike the local water utilities that as a condition of service demand you stop using any private well, cistern or pump on your property. (Using your existing cistern (for multi-day reserves)and pump apparently allows dangerous freedom. . The old timers used the creek rocks for building materials ,etc , but the environuts are everywhere. The environuts are in league with big gov't and big utilities; part of the problem is those types don't want anyone to opt out of the system. They see my private well, septic tank, wood-burning stove et al , as anti-social. Even the so-called alternative home magazine are filled with cautions on obtaining the proper gov't permits before building anything.

Only in the rural areas is the land to people ratio likely to make home power practical ; I think it was that way before FDR.Someday Americans may realize just how much of our nation he destroyed.

39 posted on 03/24/2002 6:03:28 AM PST by hoosierham
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To: boris
Exactly.
40 posted on 03/24/2002 6:04:11 AM PST by snopercod
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