Scholars: Crucifixion Portrayal Inaccurate

AP News ^ | Feb 19th,2004 | PETER ENAV

[ejo]

John 20:25-27 In addition I would add v29: Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed : blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

[ZULU]

"Incidentally, Dr. Zugibe, through the use of volunteer LIVING subjects,.."


????!!!!!!

[Ann Archy]

I hate to break this to you, but the DEAD SEA SCROLLS have word for word what's in the Bible....read them...go see them....stick your fingers in there, Doubting Thomas.

I think you are not stupid, you're just yanking my chain....right?? RIGHT??

[Lazamataz]

The title of the article is "Scholars: Crucifixion Portrayal Inaccurate".

Yet the most prevalent theme in the article is ignorance and a lack of certainty.

[Jorge]

My view: Same god, different messenger.

That would make God a skitzo putting out contradictory messages and at war with Himself.
I don't think so.
More like some people who claim to speak for God are simply liars.

[Swordmaker]

Fascinating - but I was always led to believe the nails were driven into the area in the center of the wrist, so as to keep them from tearing through the flesh under the weight of the body.

That's the point, Hap. Dr. Zugibe's channel through the wrist bones does exactly that... with an entry IN THE PALM.

Hitting the Space of Destot is actually difficult and will not work in every attempt because of minute differences in the wrist... but the method demonstrated by Zugibe works every time, goes through the carpal bones of the wrist without breaking them, AND exits exactly where the exit wound in the wrist is shown on the Shroud of Turin.

This technique will easily support the entire weight of the body on ONE wrist, let alone two.

[Happy2BMe]

"This technique will easily support the entire weight of the body on ONE wrist, let alone two."

But for such surgical accuracy to have been performed on Christ during the Crucifixion, the person nailing the spikes would have had to almost have been a surgeon.

At any rate, what really matters is that Christ went to the Cross, died for the sins of all mankind, descended into hell, conquered sin, death, and the devil, and rose again on the third day, winning eternal life for all those that believe in Him as Lord and Savior.

Maranatha

[Swordmaker]

Here is some information on Dr. Barbet's book:A DOCTOR AT CALVARY

Thanks Robo. I have read Dr. Barbet's book. It was considered definitive until a forensic specialist started looking at his "facts" and conclusions. His declarations of fact were somewhat troublesome when it came to certain aspects of anatomy, erroneously placing the Median Nerve on the wrong side of the hand and misplacing the Space of Destot also on the wrong side of the wrist to agree with the image on the Shroud.

Note the Space of Destot is on the ulnar side, close to the little finger.
The image of the exit wound on the Shroud is on the radial (thumb) side.

Some of Barbet's work is excellent... but some was mistaken. Dr. Zugibe's proposal places the nail through the "Z area" and out the space you can see to the left of the Space of Destot.

[Swordmaker]

"Incidentally, Dr. Zugibe, through the use of volunteer LIVING subjects,.." ????!!!!!!

Just as I said. Dr. Zugibe crucified volunteers... sans the nails. Zugibe used leather straps with connections in the correct locations (per the Shroud of Turin) and allowed the volunteers to hang in the positions that would result from nailing.

The only difference I see is that he placed the feet side-by-side rather than one on top of the other. Zugibe's comments on the experiments:

Experiment One
A very sturdy cross was constructed for me by the late Father Weyland, S.V.D. with the stipes measuring 92" high and the patibulum measuring 3" wide and the base secured with reinforced angle iron. A series of numbered holes were drilled through each arm of the patibulum to allow for different arm lengths. This was necessary because the longer the arm length the closer to vertical the individual would hang if a single hole was provided for all arm lengths. Each hole was drilled in a slightly downward direction from front to back so that the bolts could be inserted from back to front in an upward direction to avoid slippage by special leather gauntlets used to secure the hands to the patibulum without constricting the wrists and compromising the blood supply. A hole was provided on each gauntlet at the level of the base of the middle fingers so it could be placed over the bolt that corresponded to the arm length of the volunteer. Human volunteers between the ages of 20 and 35 were given a physical examination and resting values were obtained which included, a 12 lead electrocardiogram, pulse rate, blood pressure, auscultatory examination, vital capacity and ear oximetry values, arterial blood gases, and venous blood chemistries. A gauntlet was firmly tied on each hand and heart monitoring electrodes were placed on their chests and attached to a stress testing apparatus (Fig.9) which monitored the electrical patterns of the heart, monitored the heart rate with digital readouts, and provided electrocardiogram strips automatically, each minute. A blood pressure cuff with double transducers was placed on the arm and attached to an Infrasonde electronic blood pressure unit (Fig. 9) and a Water's ear oximeter probe was attached to an ear and connected to an instrument that records the oxygen concentration of the blood at all times. Each volunteer was instructed to inform us of any breathing difficulties, pains of any kind, muscle cramps, or any other problems. They were also requested not to attempt to lift the body up at any time by straightening their legs. Each volunteer climbed up on a stool, placed their outstretched arms along the patibulum to line up the holes in the gauntlets with the respective holes on the patibulum corresponding to their arm length and bolts were inserted into the appropriate holes through the back of the patibulum then through the holes in the gauntlets. The stool was carefully removed allowing the volunteer to be fully suspended (Fig. 9). A modified seat belt was then utilized to secure the feet flush to the upright of the cross. An emergency crash cart containing a defibrillator, cardiac medications and intubation equipment was on hand to provide for the patients safety. Individuals were stationed to the right and left of the volunteers in case of an emergency. During the period of suspension, the following information was accrued and tabulated: visual inspection was made for muscle twitching, chest excursions, color, sweating, etc., and subjective information including pain, breathing problems psychological feelings, etc. were also recorded. A heart-lung evaluation including examination of heart and lungs with a stethoscope, periodic arterial blood gases, ear oximeter readings, vital capacity, electrocardiograms of specific leads, blood pressures, periodic blood chemistry screening including a routine chemistry screen, CPK with isoenzymes, lactic acid, etc. Douglas bag collections of the inspired and expired air were taken at various intervals. [Note: Dr. Zugibe reported that this last sentence was a typographical error and the insipred and expired air were actually studied with "spirometry" studies rather than with the use of a "Douglas Bag." - Swordmaker]

Experiment Two
An experiment was performed on several of the volunteers who were requested to push themselves up with their feet as was indicated in Barbet's Asphyxiation Theory, in order to observe the angle of the wrist in both positions.

Experiment Three
Ten volunteers with angles of their arms with the upright between 60 to 65 degrees were studied by the above procedures but without strapping their feet to the cross with the seat belt device to determine if the feet support had any effect on breathing.

Results
The volunteers were suspended for periods ranging from 5 to 45 minutes determined by when they wished to come down. The major reasons for this decision was almost always due to the pain or cramping in the shoulders, arms and hands.

The angle of the arms with the upright varied between individuals with a wide range from 60 to 70 degrees.

There was no visual evidence of breathing difficulties throughout the suspension.

Subjectively, every volunteer affirmed that they had absolutely no trouble breathing either during inspiration or expiration. A common complaint was a feeling of chest rigidity and leg cramps between 10 and 20 minutes into suspension. When this occurred, they were allowed to straighten their legs or come down.

The oxygen content of the blood either increased or remained constant. Both visual observations and Douglas bag studies determined this to be the result of hyperventillation with abdominal breathing beginning after 4 minutes at a rate about 4-5 times normal.

Sweating varying in amount from mild to marked occurred at about 6 minutes in most volunteers.

The heart rate increased up to 120 at the end of their suspensions but there were no arrhythmias. There were occasional rapid rates as high as 175 but this decreased  after the volunteer got over their  initial anxiety. The blood pressure increased to varying degrees but never above 160 mm, systolic in everyone depending on their state of conditioning. The electrocardiogram only showed muscle tremors and no cardiac abnormalities.

The backs of the volunteers never touched the cross except in the shoulder region of  some volunteers  where it was slight. Pain in the shoulders caused many of them to arch their bodies back so that the top of the head touched the stipes thereby relieving some of the pain.

The Volunteers that were suspended without securing their feet had no difficulty breathing but suffered a marked increase in pain in their shoulders, arms and hands requiring the feet support or having to take them down.

[Swordmaker]

But for such surgical accuracy to have been performed on Christ during the Crucifixion, the person nailing the spikes would have had to almost have been a surgeon.

On the contrary, finding Destot's Space is much more difficult than finding the "Z channel" Dr. Zugibe demonstrates... any person experienced at crucifixion would know where to place the nail in the upper palm (see the picture in the previous reply). There is literally a "dent" in the muscles and fat of the hand where the nail should be started and it is easily felt.

There is no such guide to finding the pathway through the wrist bones the Destot Space allows... and often, because of the flatness of the bones around the Space, the nail would strike one of the carpal bones instead of slipping into the space.

I agree with your observation about what really mattered.

[ZULU]

Glad he didn't use nails.

I think I have had enough of all this. I'm a conservative Chrsitian and a Roman history buff, among many other things. But I have had nothing but nightmares since these threads started with all the details about crucifixtion and Gibson's brutal movie.

Roman military operations and engineering achievements are far more settling for study than gladatorial combats and methods they used to execute prisoners.

[Godzilla]

Good informatin, all the more reason that nails were used, much to the dismay of Crossan et.al.

[Modernman]

I hate to break this to you, but the DEAD SEA SCROLLS have word for word what's in the Bible....read them...go see them....stick your fingers in there, Doubting Thomas.

That's what I was trying to get you to do- provide some external evidence for your view that events in the Bible occured as the Bible described them.

I think you are not stupid, you're just yanking my chain....right?? RIGHT??

I don't consider the Bible to be literally true. It's value is as a moral framework, not as a history text.

[realpatriot71]

you might be interested in post #132

[realpatriot71]

My view: Same god, different messenger.

Then you are ignorant of both Christianity and Islam - compare and contrast the Bible with the Koran - it's not the same God.

[tutstar]

Jhn 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.


Jhn 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.


Jhn 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you.


Jhn 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

[realpatriot71]

When was he crushed?

Ever suffocated? Take some time to read about the signs and symptoms of asphixiation. Then I would take a little more time to read about the pathophysiology of crucifixtion. Get back to me when you know what those who were crucified died, and what they felt like.

[realpatriot71]

Take a looke at an X-ray of the hand. The three carpal bones, specifically the Lunate, Schaphoid, and Capitate offer a "tunnel" through the palmar surface of the hand that would support the weight of the body. BTW, after being nailed one could have easily tied the comdemned to the cross. Remember crucifxtion was more for demonstration to the people than for punishing the condemned - the process was as absolutely sadistic as it gets. Furthermore, placing he nail here avoids the major arteries to the hand - go figure.

[TheDeacon]

"excruciating"

I wonder if the writer realizes the root of this word and really intended to use it?