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To: presidio9
Here's the deal: Yes, Jesus is the Messiah. However, if you accept the fact that he is the Son of God, then the question is moot.

Here's the deal: Jesus was not the Messiah. He never existed any more than Dionysus, Adonis or Tammuz. That is why there is no record of anything he said in his native language, Aramaic. That is also why it is impossible to match up the date of his birth with any census that there is any record of.

He was never crucified. That is why the Gospels never say what year it happened. It was not necessary for the Jews to go to the Romans to execute people for religious crimes, as is demonstrated in Acts 7:59, nor would they have done so. Nor was it blasphemy to call oneself the Messiah. Nor was there ever any tradition of letting a prisoner go free on Passover.

The word nazarene (nazoraios) does not mean a person from Nazareth, it means a member of a mystery cult (ha-nazorot). Followers of John the Baptist (another mythical character) were also called nazarenes. The references to Jesus and John the Baptist in Josephus are forgeries.

There is virtually nothing in the Gospels that cannot be found in Greek mythology, Greek philosophy, the Old Testament, the writings of the Pharisees or the writings of Philo.

Christianity began as merely a biblical version of the Hellenistic mystery cults. Cults such as Dionysus used Greek mythology as a starting point. Mithras was a mystery cult that used Zoroastrianism as a starting point. Christianity used the Jewish Bible as a starting point.

It was never a sect of Judaism. Its only connection to Judaism was that it expropriated the (translated) Jewish Bible as if it were its own. The early Christians were not primarily Jews, they were mostly "God fearing gentiles" who had read the translated Jewish Bible.

317 posted on 03/09/2004 10:41:33 AM PST by Inyokern
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To: Inyokern
Here's the deal: Jesus was not the Messiah. He never existed any more than Dionysus, Adonis or Tammuz.

So Jesus never even existed, right?


Show 'em my motto!

318 posted on 03/09/2004 10:47:16 AM PST by rdb3 (The Servant of Jehovah is the Christ of Calvary and of the empty tomb. <><)
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To: Inyokern
He was never crucified.

Really?

And you were there?
320 posted on 03/09/2004 12:38:49 PM PST by johnb2004
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To: Inyokern; presidio9
More copies of the Bible exist than any other comparable ancient document. There are 500 copies of the Bible dating from before the year 500 A.D., far more copies than any other book dating from the same era. No one doubts the existence of Aristotle, though far fewer copies of his works exist.

Moreover, the eyewitness accounts in the Gospels agree substantially. There are minor differences between the four Gospels, but that is what one would expect with differing eye witness accounts. This fact actually lends credence to their authenticity.

As Peter Kreeft says, those who question Christ's divinity face a "trilemma," Jesus is either Lord, liar or lunatic. Jesus doesn't exhibit any characteristics of an insane person, nor does he exhibit the characteristics of a liar.

Could Jesus' disciples have made up the account of the crucifixion and resurrection? Some of the Gospels date to within 15 years of Jesus' crucifixion. Witnesses were still alive who could have easily discounted a fictitious story.

Also, what would Jesus' followers have gained from promoting this story? Almost all of Jesus' disciples were executed. Why would they voluntarily go to their deaths for a lie? Moreover, if they were liars, they surely would have retracted their statements in order to save their own necks.

Could Jesus have escaped from the tomb? How could he have survived scourging and crucifixion, and then moved an enormous stone and eluded the Roman guards?

Finally, I propose the following argument.

1) The Bible is an authentic historic document (see above).
2) In the text, Jesus is quoted as saying that He will found a Church that the gates of hell would not prevail against.
3) A Church has been in existence for around 2000 years, with a public, non-contradictory body of doctrine and an unbroken line of leaders.
4) No remotely comparable human institution exists.
5) It is reasonable to assume that this institution is divinely protected, and is Christ's Church, as described in the Bible (considered simply as a historical document).
6) This Church teaches that the Bible is divinely inspired and that Jesus was crucified and resurrected.
7) Jesus was crucified and resurrected.

321 posted on 03/09/2004 12:40:47 PM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Inyokern; presidio9
Jesus was not the Messiah.

When a new diplomat arrives, the first thing he does is present his credentials to officials of the host country. The host diplomats, recognizing the credentials as authentic, know that the man who carries them is an authentic representative of his country. When our heavenly Father sends His Messiah, we would expect Him to have credentials, something only God could do. No man could before he was born enter into the written record a detailed description of his life. Our heavenly Father sent His Son's credentials centuries before His arrival: From the line of David: Is 9:7 "… upon the throne of David …" Jer 23:5 "I will raise up for David a righteous Branch." 490 years after the Temple restoration: Dn 9:24 "Seventy weeks of years are decreed … from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one." King Cyrus decreed the restoration of Jerusalem around 536 B.C. Daniel's seventy weeks of years (seventy times seven, 490 years) brought us to within a half century of Jesus' arrival. Massacre of innocents: Jer 31:15 "Thus says the Lord: 'Rachel is weeping for her children.'" Praised by little children: Ps 8:1 "Thou whose glory above the heavens is chanted by the mouth of babes and infants …" Rejected by His own people: Is 53:3 "He was despised and rejected by men." Riding to Jerusalem: Zec 9:9 "Lo, your king comes to you; triumphant and victorious is he, humbling and riding on an ass, on a colt the foal of an ass." New covenant: Je 31:31 "I will make a new covenant." Betrayed by a friend: Ps 41:9 "Even my bosom friend in whom I trusted, who ate of my bread, has lifted his heel against me." Thirty pieces of silver: Zec 11:12 "And they weighed out as my wages thirty shekels of silver." Died to redeem us: Is 53:5 "He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole." His bones would not be broken: Ex 12:46 "You shall not break a bone of [the paschal lamb]. Nm 9:12 "…nor break a bone of it …" Ps 34:20 "He keeps all his bones; not one of them is broken."

Jesus from the cross said, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani, "My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?" At that time the psalms had not been numbered. Jews then knew all the psalms, and referred to a particular psalm by its first few words. In that way Jesus reminded us of the stunning prophecy in Psalm 22: "They divide my garments among them, and for my raiment they cast lots."

A thousand years of these canonical prophecies of the Messiah stopped completely, shortly before Jesus of Nazareth arrived.

Our heavenly Father allowed His Messiah to speak to us directly from the Book of Proverbs, 8:22 "The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. When there were no depths I was brought forth … When he established the heavens, I was there … when he marked out the foundations of the earth, then I was beside him, like a master workman."

Our Father added to His Messiah's credentials by pre-figuring Him throughout man's history. When Cain murdered the good shepherd Abel, God told him, Gn 4:10 "The voice of your brother's blood is crying to me from the ground." The Book of Hebrews speaks of, 12:24 "…[Christ's] sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel." When Abram returned from his victory over Chedorlaomer, Gn 14:18 "Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine." Salem is shalom, Hebrew for peace, and foreshadows Isaiah's 9:6 Prince of Peace. Jesus was also pre-figured in Abraham's near-sacrifice of his only son; Abraham told young Isaac, Gn 22:8 "God will provide Himself the lamb for a burnt offering." But Jesus was most pre-figured in Moses. Moses interceded with Our Father in heaven for his people, who did not pray for themselves, just as Jesus interceded for us with the Father. Moses pre-figured Jesus' 40-day fast: Ex 34:28 "[Moses] was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water." Mt 4:2 "[Jesus] fasted for forty days and forty nights." Moses pre-figured Jesus' transfiguration: Ex 34:29 "When Moses came down from Mount Sinai … the skin of his face shone because he had been talking with God." Mt 17:2 "[Jesus] was transfigured before them, and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became white as light."
Full Text

He was never crucified

"On the eve of Passover Jesus was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Anyone who can say anything in his favor let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favor, he was hanged on the eve of Passover. Ulla retorted: Do you suppose he was one for whom a defense could be made? Was he not a mesith (enticer), concerning whom Scripture says, "Neither shall thou spare nor shall thou conceal him?" With Jesus, however, it was different, for he was connected with the government.
(Sanhedrin 43a) "
Jesus in the Talmud

322 posted on 03/09/2004 1:00:19 PM PST by NYer (Ad Jesum per Mariam)
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To: Inyokern
I actually feel sorry for you, Inyokern.
323 posted on 03/09/2004 1:02:26 PM PST by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet (I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ.)
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To: Inyokern
"If one believes Jesus is the Messiah, then you can throw away the rest of the Bible because you can change the meaning of words to make them mean anything.

Jesus was not in the royal lineage according to the generally accepted meanings of the words in the Bible."

poppycock--


"Here's the deal: Jesus was not the Messiah. He never existed any more than Dionysus, Adonis or Tammuz. That is why there is no record of anything he said in his native language, Aramaic. That is also why it is impossible to match up the date of his birth with any census that there is any record of."

and in whose authority speak ye these words. Are you Gentile, Jew, from the HOuse of Israel, you know those "lost ten tribes", or of the HOuse of Judah, taken captive by that king of Babylon, or maybe you set forth yourself as a "god".

You have made claims, set forth the evidence, and please state whence your evidence comes from, oh and by the way please don't claim it comes from the ORIGINAL HEBREW from which Christ taught that won't fly.




326 posted on 03/09/2004 2:46:53 PM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Inyokern; All
Oh, I get it. You read The DaVinci Code.
Yawn.
I'm so tired of this.
333 posted on 03/09/2004 9:07:02 PM PST by sfRummygirl ('The Purpose Driven Life' ;-))
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