"The Vatican and all other religious bodies
have no business interfering in political matters....
They should lose their tax deductions and register as lobbists
or stay out of secular affairs."
2. The Roman Catholic Church in its decisions to admit to the Holy Eucharist those who claim membership in the Church is NOT governed by the United States government or any other government save that of the Roman Catholic Church. That principle is covered by freedom of worship.
3. You are apparently not a Catholic. Hence, whether the Roman Catholic Church allows blatant apostates and babykillers such as John Kerry to receive the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ is none of your business. MYOB. If you happen to be a Catholic and you disagree with the actions of those Catholic bishops and the Vatican courageous enough to just say no to John Kerry when he approaches for the Eucharist, you had better outrank those bishops or it is again none of your business.
4. We are not going to be pushed around by secular enemies of the Church. Any questions?????
What you know about the Establishment and Freedom of Worship clauses of the federal First Amendment would fit within a neuron and would still be flat out wrong. The RCC, no less than the local Elks Club or the Yale Club of New York or a union local or a homeowners' association may discipline its members.
As you are a member since today, May 14, 2004, Newbie, I must observe that you have made a most inauspicious beginning here. Were you bored with Demonratic Underground?
This is not a political matter. Kerry holds views contrary to the Catholic Church and persists in those views. That makes him a heretic whether he is a politician or plumber.
The Church has to deal with heretics or it will become just another Protestant church. - tom
Politicians have been allowed to call themselves "Catholic" purely for the purpose of getting the Catholic vote, while they flout major tenets of the Catholic faith. They wanted to use the Catholic Church's good name as a political tool, while at the same time they were not in good standing with the Church because they refuse to agree to the beliefs required by the Church. This is hypocritical in the most basic sense.
Now they have to fish or cut bait, no more working both sides of the street and serving two masters. Of COURSE the more stubborn ones (like JF'nKerry) are trying to call it a "separation of church and state" issue! They want to keep on getting all the benefits of "being Catholic" with the old Catholic voting bloc, while not actually believing the teachings of the Church. (St. Paul said that those who go to communion unbelieving "eat and drink their own damnation." It's telling that these politicians value votes more than their immortal souls.)
The Catholic Church believes that abortion is murder. John Kerry and his wife both support abortion and take money from the abortion lobby--a major corporate sponsor for the Democratic party. Fine. But don't publicly stand up and receive the Eucharist, pose for the camera, and proclaim that you are a Catholic. It would further break down our faith if we elected a man who said he was a Catholic to the most visible job in the world and he was, essentially, a spokesperson for murder. He is not a real Catholic. He is a cafeteria Catholic only. He can believe what he wants but he should not be allowed to use the Catholic Church for political purposes. Kerry wants to have it both ways AGAIN.
The decision to gas Jews was POLITICAL decision. I hope you will remember this the next time you feel the urge to criticize any Pope, priests, bishops, ministers, or other religious people, for supposedly not saying or doing enough to oppose the gassing of Jews. I hope that you regularly criticize Rev. M.L. King for his constant interference in the POLITICAL choice many states made to practice racial discrimination. Gassing Jews: A POLITICAL decision. Racial discrimination: A POLITICAL decision. Permitting abortion: A POLITICAL decision. Burning down churches and shooting priests: A POLITICAL decision.
Nonsense. You are not advocating separation of Church and State, you are advocating the supremacy of the State. Please read William Buckley's latest column. The Church has every right to establish the circumstance and principles with which it confers privileges to its members.
What private beliefs and decisions a Catholic holds and makes are between him and God. So the Church will not interrogate the person receiving the Eucharist. But a political leader makes public comments and decisions. And when those fly in the face of Church teaching a message is sent to the Faithful. If the Church acquiesces then the message is that its teaching is optional. In a Church and faith that believes in a judgement and individual responsibility the problem is one of misleading the Faithful to a way of life on which they alone will be judged.
As to other policies of the Church like war and death penalty. These are policies, not articles of faith. Abortion to a practicing Catholic is the taking of innocent life. To acquiesce if in a position to stop it peacefully is immoral and sinful. To celebrate it as a fundamental right is, for a Catholic, sacrilegious.
If John Kerry believes, as he says he does, in the Catholic teaching on abortion, then he believes it is the taking of human life. This is not fish on Friday. It is not even the belief in the presence of Christ in the Eucharist. This is real world, real victims. If John Kerry or any Catholic politician believes the Church's teaching on abortion then he cannot separate the public and the private. It would be condoning murder because the murderer does not feel the humanity of the victim as you do. We had a situation like this once before in America. The battle between slavery and abolition. That too was a religious struggle
The Catholic Church has first amendment rights as much as anyone or any other institution has. Her ministers have every right to express their opinion on any and all matters, including social matters and political matters, and moreover, have every single right to establish whatever rules and doctrines she wishes regarding the practice and belief of those who wish to be considered Catholics. When someone like Kerry deliberately distorts what the Church teaches and promotes the grave sin of abortion, the Church has every right to deny him communion. Your trying to say she does not is itself a denial of the right of free speech, religion and assembly that is guaranteed by the First Amendment of the US Constitution.
Tax exempt status has always been an acknowledgememnt by our government that organized religion is a
major major major major major major major
benefit to our one nation under God and our society.
So much so that churches pay no taxes - by law.
You simply do not understand the facts here.
A man is choosing to participate as a member of the Church. The Church has membership requirements (with receiving communion being the ultimate sign of full membership). One of the membership rquirements is to not be an unrepentant public sinner. When someone does not meet membership requirements, they are not afforded the privileges of membership.
No politics involved. Which is why this issue has been ignored up until now because the Church did not want this public pissing match.
It is the snarling in-your-face whining and politicization of communion by hisexellencybishop John Faux Kerry that politicized his own choice to ignore the membership rules while demanding membership privileges.
There has never been an absolute "right" to receive communion.
I think you are confused, the Catholic Church is not dealing with political matters, it is dealing with internal church issues. As non Catholics it is none of your, or my business.
We are either a "free nation" or a phony nation. What freedom are we defending and promising to other countries if our churches are allowed to try and control politicians?
You seem to have this on upsidedown also,the politicians are exploiting the Church, the Church is taking steps to retain it's policy.
They should lose their tax deductions and register as lobbists or stay out of secular affairs.
All churches should willingly give up their 501 C-3 Corporate Status, then teach the word of God, not the way of the secular world.
We've staked the whole future of American civilization
not on the power of government, far from it. We have
staked the future of all our political institutions upon the
capacity of each and all of us. . . to govern ourselves
according to the commandments of God.
The future and success of America is not in this
Constitution, but in the laws of God upon which
this Constitution is founded.
--James Madison, fourth U.S. president.
Hi Newbie. They aren't being excommunicated from America...the Church as EVERY right to do this...it's not politics...were the Gays politicians??? You obviously aren't Catholic.
That's a very nice speech.
What in blazes does it have to do with a Church enforcing it's own rules about who can and cannot receive Communion in that Church?
Kerry has a First Amendment right to seek to become a Protestant, a Jew, a Hindu, a Buddhist, a Muslim, a Druid or an atheist if he does not want to follow the teachings of the Catholic Church.
Kerry does not have a First Amendment right to receive Communion in the Catholic Church if the Catholic Church determines that he is in a state of mortal sin any more than I have a First Amendment right to show up at a synagogue and demand a Bar Mitzvah.
"The Vatican and all other religious bodies have no business interfering in political matters."
Political issue? This NOT a olitical issue. It is a moral issue of the highest order. Our once great nation is doomed if we continue to lsaught ther unborn, the most innocent amoung us.