Spelling Bee Protester replies

Spelling-bee protesters 'thru with through', the Seattle Times ^ | June 3, 2004 | Seattle Times

[Spellfix]

I am new to your forum, a spelling bee protester just getting around to answering some comments posted June 3 here: http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1146693/post My actual remarks are under Comment. Please email me if I'm putting the comment where the thread should be or vice versa. ramole@aol.com

[Spellfix]

Some reformers would like to have a different reform for each country -- SoundSpel was once called "American" for this reason. But this is really not necessary, because in general, pronunciations are consistent within a group. If you do not pronounce the h in "house" you don't say it in "hotel" or "horse" either. So you can just write it and most people won't say it if they come from those parts.

Anyway, no reform will ever be perfect. Nothing is. But it can be vastly better than our Traditional Orthography. After all, nobody anywhere pronounces the S in island. And vastly better is good enough.

[CIB-173RDABN]

I can make out what you "translated" but that is not my point. I can read and write in standard English.

I am thinking of someone who is "trained" in this new English, will they be able to read the "old" English?

I agree with the majority of posters, leave English alone. It can adapt as times change and as it has to.

[Spellfix]

From The London Times, March 26, 1999, "Literacy Crusade Aims to Hit Home", table "Literacy Skills":

Percentage of adults at lowest literacy level:

Poland 44
Ireland 24
Britain 23
United States 22
...
New Zealand 20
Australia 17
Belgium 17
Canada 17
...
Germany 12
The Netherlands 10
Sweden 7

Not all countries have good schools (and remember Poland was Communist until recently, so don't blame the Poles or their spelling.) And of course we have more minorities than some, and of course it is not fair to blame our schools because millions of illiterate people stream across out southern border.

Yet the fact remains that English speaking countries have higher rates of illiteracy than *similar* countries with rational spelling systems. Roughly twice as high. So of our 40 million functional illiterates, 20 million or more need not be.

[Spellfix]

Actually no. There are computer programs to translate in both directions and almost everyone can read SoundSpel with no trouble even the first time they see it. But no one proposes to force anybody to write in SoundSpel. It might take over after a hundred years but more likely both systems would continue in use amiably, like British and American spelling. (What, it doesn't bother you that the Brits write honour, colour, plough and theatre? When you read a book out of England you don't even notice? Exactly -- I've never heard anyone comment about that, let alone complain. And after a short period of initial shock it will be the same with SoundSpel.)Look:
Akchualy no. Thair ar compueter proegrams to translaet in boeth direcshuns and allmoest evrywun can reed Soundspel with no trubl eeven th ferst tiem thae see it. But no wun propoezes to fors enybody to riet in Soundspel. It miet taek oever after a hundred yeers but mor liekly boeth sistems wuud continue in ues amiably, liek British and American speling. (Whut, it duzn't bother U that th Brits riet Onor, colour, plough and theeater? When U reed a buuk out of England U don't eeven noetis? Exactly -- I'v never herd enywun coment about that, let aloen complaen. And after a short peeriod of inishal shok it wil be th saem with Soundspel.)

[Spellfix]

For more on reform see www.spellingsociety.org or www.americanliteracy.com/alc6.htm

[mykroar]

tihs is pbobraly wehre the carp aubot bineg albe to raed aytnhnig wehre the frist and lsat ltteres are in the rghit pcale cmeos form.

Give me a break.

[SoftballMominVA]

Actually, you have some incorrect data. In the most recent international comparisons of children's reading ability, (1992) 4th grade students in the U.S. ranked SECOND, only behind Finland. 9th grade students in the U.S. finished 9th, but it should be noted that in many countries, students who struggle are allowed and even encouraged to leave school. Still the U.S. 9th graders did score above the average -- and it scored statistically the same as the 4th graders. The study authors posited that the other countries improved due to the pulling out of the low scores.

Even so, the U.S. 9th graders still scored better than Germany, Denmark, Canada, and The Netherlands. Those scores included ALL ranges of socio-economic classes for the U.S. and only the top 2/3 or so of those countries.

In the event one would want to look up this study, I give the following information.

Elley, W. B. (1992). How in the World do Students Read? IEA Study of Reading Literacy. The Hague, Netherlands: International Association for the Evaluation of Educational Achievement. Excerpts of this study may be found in the book, What Really Matters for Struggling Readers by Richard L. Allington.

So all that being said, U.S. kids stack up just fine across the world. Does that mean we can't and shouldn't do better? Of course we should.

[Spellfix]

Thanks for a thoughtful response.

Regarding regional pronunciations, see #101.

SoundSpel is basically ITA with the combined letters separated again.

It is true that the etymologies are partially lost with reform. However, other languages respell foreign words according to their rules, so they get pronounced right. And our spelling does a lot of harm to "origins". We often use bad rules and end up pronouncing foreign words wrongly. I saw a sign in Greece for a "Keramics Studio" "Ceramics" is a Greek word and we used the ambiguous "Ce" to spell it, with the result we ended up pronouncing it as S instead of K. As the inventors, the Greeks resent that and want to correct it.

Still, on rare occasions, an etymological scholar would have to look in the dictionary instead of just looking at the word to see the origin. Maybe there are as many as three scholars who would be inconvenienced twice a week by that. But in the US alone are 40,000,000 functional illiterates who need to read, every day of the week. I think they are more important.

As I have said in other responses, no one wants the government to mandate that everyone must use SoundSpel. Most people would continue to use regular spelling as long as they lived.

[Spellfix]

We do not have counting bees, because nobody would ever miss. "What comes after 1024?" "1025!" Right, and so ends the 10,001,027th round of the Counting Bee, which started five years ago today..."

In other countries they do not have spelling bees, for the same reason. Spelling should be easy and natural, and when it follows the rules of alphabetic writing, it is. But English spelling breaks the rules, because our authorities have been too brainless, spineless and lazy to fix it. So we, and we alone, waste all this time and even have contests where we marvel that some genius can do what every six year old elsewhere does naturally.

The Bee is fun and contests are good things, but there are far more worthy things to do with that effort than memorize irrational spellings. We should fix our spelling and then have a Vocabulary Bee.

[Spellfix]

Yaay! A convert...
For more on reform see www.spellingsociety.org or www.americanliteracy.com/alc6.htm

[Spellfix]

Not everyone can become president but everyone should be able to master spelling, as they do in other countries.
(Almost everyone; obviously the retarded and some intelligent ultra-dyslexics cannot.)

But this was mainly in answer to the common objection that "Everyone can master spelling, if they just try a little!" No they can't, as the Bee proves.

[Sofa King]

Apparently, my words went in one ear and our the other. The Spelling Bee is designed to single out one person among many. You are arguing that the fact that it's design works is somehow a problem.

[Spellfix]

Just as you can make out that posting with the original Chaucer spelling, so SoundSpelers will be able to read Traditional Orthography, sort of. But why will they bother? They'll just download the work, click an icon, and have it in SoundSpel.

[Spellfix]

English readers do well on average but have more people in the lowest category, usually "functionally illiterate" than foreigners.

[Spellfix]

I am arguing that the fact it exists at all is an indictment of our spelling system. I agree it is a contest and it starts with ten million contestants and ends with one winner. But it is like a contest in which one ten year old in a million can walk a hundred feet. That works too, but shows that the society is wrong to break childrens' legs six times a year.

We should fix spelling and then have a vocabulary bee instead.

[Sofa King]

"But it is like a contest in which one ten year old in a million can walk a hundred feet."

No, it would be like a contest where a million ten year olds had to walk as far as they can, and the one who walks the farthest wins. Just because not all the year olds can walk as far as the winner does not mean that walking is too difficult.

[SoftballMominVA]

English readers do well on average but have more people in the lowest category, usually "functionally illiterate" than foreigners.
That's because low performing kids in other countries are sweeping floors by the time they are 12.

[bluefish]

Bad analogy. The system is bad for dyslexics, not for the rest of us. You want to return to bloodletting and leaches in order to accommodate the few that it will help, rahther than to improve the system for the majority that it won't. Your reasoning is so lgoically flawed that pointing out the obvious accomplishes nothing. Of course, your entire starting proposition already demonstrated this, so I don't know why I even bothered.

Actually, I'm not that interested. I'm not concerned either. The ebonics lobby is probably bigger than the dyslexic lobby. The rest of us will watch you battle over the best way to butcher the language in your effort to reduce us to a Tower of Babble.

[Spellfix]

English readers do well on average but have more people in the lowest category, usually "functionally illiterate" than foreigners.
>That's because low performing kids in other countries are sweeping floors by the time they are 12.

But that is irrelevant. The Times report said Percentage of *adults* at lowest level. We still have more of those, even tho, as you mention, people in other countries often leave school earlier. (See post #103)

[Spellfix]

>"But it is like a contest in which one ten year old in a million can walk a hundred feet."

>>No, it would be like a contest where a million ten year olds had to walk as far as they can, and the one who walks the farthest wins. Just because not all the year olds can walk as far as the winner does not mean that walking is too difficult.

To continue the analogy, in other countries the kids can all walk so far the audience would all go home before one dropped, but in ours half fall over in the first block. In other countries children do misspell words, of course, but not often. Here intelligent kids have a couple of misspellings in every composition in spite of their efforts to check the work with the dictionary. We have a bad system.