Posted on 08/01/2004 6:08:53 PM PDT by NeoCaveman
Good catch, YN!
It looks like we will have debates on FTR in the upcoming months. Since we have such a hard time finding people who will even try to defend or represent the current system, I thought that you and/or Willie would be willing to defend your position on a forum other than Free Republic.
We could probably arrange to pay for your travel expenses if you are interested. We recognize that trying to defend this system is the loneliest job in town ... kinda like being the Maytag repairman ... LOL Actually, its probably even worse, because average Americans don't hate the Maytag repairman.
We will provide security and make sure you aren't in any physical danger. We will also attempt to persuade supporters of FTR to remain civil, recognizing that that will be extremely difficult.
Just let me know what dates you might be available and we will take care of the rest.
that study only goes to the time used to fill out an 1120...This is another example of NRST supporters dismissing out-of-hand any information that doesn't fit their desired outcome.
directly related to the preparation of a ready-to-file Form 1120 and accompanying forms (such as Forms 5471) typical of the filing requirements of a large U.S. multinational.
Horrible, horrible. Social Security should be eliminated. Under this proposal sales tax will go to 50% and the "takers" have no incentive to control it.
Since we have such a hard time finding people who will even try to defend or represent the current systemYou shouldn't take my questioning the FairTax as defending the current system. I guess I could be a lemming and say that because the IRS is obviously evil the FairTax must be a good alternative, but I'm not one to blindly follow the crowd. I've always asked "why" and I don't say BS smells like roses just because rotten eggs smell bad too.
And what is that percent? Is that computed on your 1040 or do you and everyone else have to make those computations to know what percent they paid in taxes?
"Hidden" corporate taxes are a different story, partly because nobody how much (if any) of what I pay in prices is corporate taxes. But also because I don't have a good accounting of how much I spent last year.
Precisely the point, no one really know the amount of hidden taxes they paid, thus they are hidden..why? Why don't you have a good accounting of what you spent last year? Did you deduct state taxes you paid off your federal income taxes? Do you file a short form? Wouldn't it be prudent to have a budget and know your income and expenses for a year? How about your beginning net worth and ending net worth? Are you getting ahead or behind?
State & local sales tax 7.75 percent, pretty visible to me If it was 7.75% and pretty visible, you should be able to tell me how much you gave your state government last year in sales taxes.
Yes I gave the state government 7.75% of taxable purchases in sales taxes. I cannot compute how much I paid in hidden taxes, and is one of my complaints with the present system. The cost of government should be visible to those paying for it and not hidden. I am not free to decide how much to pay the government, where a visible tax based on consumption would allow me that FREEDOM.
Yes I gave the state government 7.75% of taxable purchases in sales taxes.My point is that, sure you know the statutory percentage you pay on taxable purchases and you may even know you paid 65 cents in sales taxes at lunch, but because you are paying it a few pennies or dollars at a time, the entire burden is hard to grasp. As is evidenced by you not being able to tell me a dollar amount (and probably not a percentage of income) you paid in state sales taxes.
Precisely the point, no one really know the amount of hidden taxes they paid, thus they are hidden..why?I probably shouldn't bring up this point, but by taxing your state and local governments, part of your federal tax burden in essentially hidden in your state and local taxes. So part of your property taxes will be going to the federal government, as will your state excise and sales taxes. So much for total visibility.
Social Security becomes even more of a pure Socialist program at this point. Which is bad. At this point there is at least some tenuous connection between what you put in and what you take out. Under your plan it becomes a completely unearned entitlement. Someone who never worked a day in their life would get exactly the same benefit as someone who worked 2 jobs for 40 years. Does that make sense to you? It's basically a lottery for those who live the longest.
My alternative is 100% privitization. Each person would get exactly what they put in, with interest, no more no less. Interest would be calculated based on T-Bill rates and compounded retroactively. At retirement each citizen could elect to 1) convert it to an annuity (no balance at death of self and spouse) 2)take interest only payments (full balance is inhereted at death).
We might still need a charity system for those who don't contribute, but it should be obvious that is a govenment charity, not a blurred issue like with todays system.
You take a study of tax compliance costs from 1985 that includes individual costs and try to apply to today's corporate compliance costs.
Once again you spin rather that treat facts, since the individual cost have been removed in using the $800billion figure.
Payne's factor of 65cents per dollar taxes collected calculates a much higher value than $800billion in 2000, As the response here showed:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1160242/posts?page=497#497
You don't suppose computer tax software has changed the "compliance" costs for individuals, do you?
Since I compliance costs for individuals were not included in the $800 billion business compliance costs your red herring is just a rather dead red herring to boot.
Everybody gets a rebate check for the same dollar amount: you, me, and Bill Gates. It's enough to cover the taxes paid on purchases up to the poverty level or thereabouts. This turns the FairTax into a progressive system; as you spend more, the rebate cancels less of your taxes percentage-wise, so your effective rate increases. Great! Guaranteed Monthly Income! Why work, I'll just wait for my "rebate" check and go buy some chips and beer.
Am I missing something? Isn't this the socialists dream come true. "To Each According to His Needs". The 'Fair Tax' gives them the tool to solidify one side of their program. Then they keep ratcheting up the amount of the "rebate". I realize the earned income tax credit does that for a few people now, but this would be nationwide. The 'dole' comes to America! Yuck. Eliminate this provision. EVERYONE SHOULD PAY. Just because your poor doesn't mean you don't owe SOMETHING for the collective security of the USA, the interstate system that brings food to market, the cost of incarcertaing criminals. You benefit from all those, so pay for it.
Stop designing systems that create, nurture and reward parasites!
You are correct - large businesses still need the accountants, but sole proprietorships and most small businesses wouldn't...and since I live in a state without state income tax I didn't factor that in for you less fortunate -- of course y'all could move here and help push up my real estate values !!
Great! Guaranteed Monthly Income! Why work, I'll just wait for my "rebate" check and go buy some chips and beer.
If you figure you can live on 23% of the povertyline, go to it. Just means one more job for someone who is willing to work.
Am I missing something?
Yep
Isn't this the socialists dream come true.
A starving one.
EVERYONE SHOULD PAY.
Everyone does pay, a full 23% at the retail cash register, no exceptions.
Sorry, but a department budget does not include the total costs of loss to business, lobbying that bear upon impact of the income/payroll tax sytem on a business as a whole.Why exactly do you think corporations invest in lobbyists? Do think they would lobby government if it was a net loss to their bottom line?
I never thought I'd hear the GOP leadership pushing for the elimination of the IRS. This is a landmark in American politics.
Go Bush!!!
There is no amount of information I could present that would change your mind.
No.
Have you ever conceded even one point?
Never when I am right.
You've got your 20 year old study that supports your desired outcome
Actually I have a 100 year old one the supports the fact that the burden is growing.
"Tax lobby too strong"
The most powerful lobby in the world goes by the name "American Public". If THEY pressure our leaders, there can be no resistance.
And where do you think individuals get the money to pay those taxes ? From their gross pay. And where do they get their gross pay ? Hmmmm..... let me think about that for awhile.
And are you are aware that you are not the only one paying taxes on your paycheck ? Your employer (I can tell you have never been an employer) matches your social security tax deducted from your check. Your employer pays unemployment taxes for you also.
Why exactly do you think corporations invest in lobbyists? Do think they would lobby government if it was a net loss to their bottom line?
65cents for dollar taxed, it would be worse if they didn't lobby the income/payroll tax system.
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The ONLY Campaign Finance Fix Destroy Gucci Gulch "Of the thousands of Lobbyists in DC, sixty percent are there to garner favor for their clients through the tax code. Does it surprise you that most of them are ex-politicians? There have been over 6,500 changes in the code since 1986. Is the code now less confusing, less intrusive, or less abusive? When they are not entertaining influential members of The Peoples' House, these lobbyists and fixers can be found each day in or near what Beltway Insiders call Gucci Gulch. Remember the $792 Billion dollar tax cut package President Clinton vetoed? In that bill was a tax cut for tackle box manufacturers. You can thank Speaker Hastert for that one. Guess where most of the tackle box manufacturers have their plants? In Speaker Hastert's district! I wonder how much Reelection Bucks he was paid to have that jewel added? According to a 1992 Nobel Laureate in economics, Gary S. Becker of the University of Chicago, In modern economies, profits often are determined more by government subsidies, taxes and regulations than by traditional management or entrepreneurial skills. Dr. Becker focuses on the emerging practice of rent-seeking, a term which economists use to describe all efforts by special interests to benefit themselves by influencing political decisions. The center of rent-seeking in the United States is the Ways and Means Committee of the U.S. House of Representatives."
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farmer milks the cow - pays income tax on his employees and taxes on his profit. Think he will lower his price to take a loss after taxes ? Milk has to be shipped to the distributer and store - they pay employee taxes and corporate taxes. Think they will lower their profit to take a loss after taxes ? Store sells it to you - pays employee taxes and corporate taxes. Think they will lower their profit to take a loss after taxes ?
If you don't realize the layers of taxes included in everything you purchase, you are very blind.
Never when I am right.Have you ever been wrong?
Standard Federal Tax Reporter includes the following looseleaf binders:
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