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Fox: Commercial Pilots 'attacked' with laser
Fox News | Greta Van Susteren

Posted on 09/28/2004 8:12:49 PM PDT by ableChair

Greta Van Susteren reported that a Delta pilot enroute to Salt Lake City was lazed in the cockpit this last Wednesday. Only country I know that has that hardware (for lazing bomber pilots) was the Soviet Union. Pilot reportedly required medical treatment and this was not a minor injury (weak laser) wound. More will come out to tomorrow as this story hits the print press.


TOPICS: Breaking News; US: Utah
KEYWORDS: airlinesecurity; dal; kapitanman; laser
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To: DB

Irrelevant and off-topic. You're talking about information transfer, not large energy transfers. Big difference.


241 posted on 09/28/2004 10:20:45 PM PDT by ableChair
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To: PhilDragoo; Kirkwood

I recall this story, as well as one wherein a private pilot was blinded by a laser in California. To be fair to the other poster(s), a high-altitude strike would require a powerful laser (and still, a direct line of sight impact on the retina). Beam dispersion at 30,000 feet would be substantial. In this regard, perhaps I owe FReeper Kirkwood an apology. I suppose I would have to run the math, for example on a 20 KW, 3-5 cm AR beam with 2% dispersion at 30,000 feet to be sure. No time for that now. :O)


242 posted on 09/28/2004 10:20:51 PM PDT by Mad_Tom_Rackham (CBS's story is sinking faster than Uncle Ted's Oldsmobile.)
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To: pbear8

I think the military developed some goggles that supposedly protect from this but still allow you to see. So, I think it can be readily defeated. Not sure, but I think that's right.


243 posted on 09/28/2004 10:21:32 PM PDT by ableChair
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To: supercat

Until the air ionizes it doesn't make any practical difference.

To ionize the air with laser light it take very large energy densities.


244 posted on 09/28/2004 10:21:32 PM PDT by DB (©)
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To: ableChair
50 watts!? Dude, a space heater puts out over a 1000 watts. This laser would have to be MUCH more powerful than 50 watts.

A space heater is not radiating directed energy.

An inexpensive diode LASER rated at one (1) Watt of output (optical) power can pop balloons from across the room, and potentially start fires. An eyeball doesn't stand much of a chance against such a device, even at greater distances.

A much higher powered flash pumped LASER can be fabricated for several hundred dollars. A 30 Watt beam is capable of welding, and punching holes in razor blades/hardened steel. If you know what you are doing, you should be able to rig a 30 Watt gas or ruby (yag) LASER in your garage, on a shoestring budget. Such a homemade LASER could indeed be extremely dangerous.

Atmospheric conditions can play a significant role in diffraction but, by its very nature, a LASER beam is capable of maintaining coherency across vast distances. Even if a 10 Watt beam were 90% diffracted by the time it reached its target, you should still have plenty of coherent photons to damage an eyeball.

245 posted on 09/28/2004 10:21:49 PM PDT by InfraRed
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To: AdamSelene235
Still, just pondering the problem for a second or two, any decent physicist could tell you it probably wouldnt work. Or would only work under lab conditions, not in space,etc.

What??? What wouldn't work? What are you talking about?
246 posted on 09/28/2004 10:23:05 PM PDT by ableChair
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To: babygene
Lasers that will damage the eye, are indeed, available on ebay. However, to aim such a laser at someone's eye (even at 100 feet) would be very difficult. To try to catch a pilot's eye at 1000 feet would be next to impossible.

It would be a bit tricky, but not beyond the ability of a competant grad. student.

Even if you got lucky, the exposure would only be tens of microseconds and would be harmless.

You're thinking CW, a Q-switched laser would do the job in nanoseconds.

The bottom line is... This article is a bunch of horse puckey.

Perhaps, but if it did happen. I suspect it was a government or research system such as a GuideStar.

247 posted on 09/28/2004 10:23:44 PM PDT by AdamSelene235
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To: joesnuffy

248 posted on 09/28/2004 10:23:49 PM PDT by Chemist_Geek ("Drill, R&D, and conserve" should be our watchwords! Energy independence for America!)
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To: InfraRed

Your post is off-point. Read my other posts. I wasn't comparing a space heater to a laser in the way you assumed.


249 posted on 09/28/2004 10:23:49 PM PDT by ableChair
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To: ableChair
What??? What wouldn't work? What are you talking about?

Nuke driven x-ray laser interception systems (maybe in the year 3000)

Not to worry, the modern Chemical Oxygen Iodine laser systems are the real deal. (hard problem as opposed to friggin buck rogers impossible)

250 posted on 09/28/2004 10:25:32 PM PDT by AdamSelene235
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To: Chemist_Geek

Nice !


251 posted on 09/28/2004 10:25:54 PM PDT by AdamSelene235
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To: ableChair

Thanks for the info, hope you are right.


252 posted on 09/28/2004 10:26:23 PM PDT by pbear8 (Dan and Martha, in jail together)
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To: spyone

No. That was a Canadian military helicopter. A US naval officer who was riding along suffered irreparable retinal damage due to the lazing. He's still seeking some sort of compensation.


253 posted on 09/28/2004 10:27:38 PM PDT by Tallguy (If the Kerry campaign implodes any further, they'll reach the point of "singularity" by election day)
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To: AdamSelene235
Perhaps, but if it did happen. I suspect it was a government or research system such as a GuideStar.

Or some idiot thinking he could see a spot on the moon and hit a plane just right instead.

254 posted on 09/28/2004 10:27:46 PM PDT by RadioAstronomer
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To: ableChair

It isn't off topic.

The energy levels it takes to damage the eye are relatively low.

Path loss does not go up with an increase in power level until the air ionizes. That level of energy is huge. You'd vaporize the pilot at those power levels...


255 posted on 09/28/2004 10:28:28 PM PDT by DB (©)
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To: ableChair
By the way, if lasers don't dissipate energy (apparently not at all if we believe you) then why did the SDI lasers they were trying to develop in the 80's require 10 exp 16 watts of power?

You are mixing the term "power" with the term "energy". They are not the same thing. If a laser has a very short pulses, it could have very high peak power, and yet not all that much energy or average power transmitted. OTOH, if it's a continuos laser, then the average power is the same as the peak power. Power is in watts, energy in joules (watt seconds) Thus the 50 watt laser, if continuous, delivers 50 joules every second. But if the laser has a microsecond pulse at the rate of one pulse per second, then it would take a 50 Megawatt peak power to deliver the same average power, or energy per second.

256 posted on 09/28/2004 10:29:29 PM PDT by El Gato (Federal Judges can twist the Constitution into anything.. Or so they think.)
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To: ableChair
Q-switched (pulsed) retina damage

(2) When the retina is exposed to pulsed laser energy, the heat cannot be carried away quickly enough by thermal conduction. The tissue is superheated and undergoes an explosive change of state, creating shock waves which mechanically disrupt tissue and spread the area of damage. If more energy is introduced, the injured area will become larger. The mechanical force produced can blow a hole through the retina and choroid, resulting in hemorrhage and may lead to severe visual loss. The blood can collect beneath the photoreceptor cell layer of the retina, disturbing its contact with the retinal pigment epitheliums resulting in retinal detachment (Figure 4). This subretinal hemorrhage can result in the death of the photoreceptor cells and a scotoma that is much larger than the thermal burn or mechanical disruption. The blood may also move into the vitreous through the disrupted retina, where it may obstruct the passage of light through the eye (Figure 5). Extensive or centrally located hemorrhage can produce a significant loss of vision. Blood in the vitreous is absorbed very slowly, but in most cases it is absorbed. The visual impairment remains as long as the blood persists; vision may improve to normal with resorption of the blood. Persistent vitreal hemorrhage may be removed by a complicated

from : http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/8-50/INTRO.htm

257 posted on 09/28/2004 10:30:16 PM PDT by AdamSelene235
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To: ableChair
This sheds some light on the atmospheric attenuation question. I'm doubting that this was cheap, easy to obtain hardware because it seemed to me that the power needed to penetrate perhaps miles of atmosphere would have to be high. This may have been the problem they were facing with SDI, that is, ionization of the air. Thanks for the on-point post.

No problem - there is a lot of hoopla out there - let me address (if I may) a couple of points that came up in the last 30 posts or so -

1) You CAN build these in your garage, as posters have mentioned, but there's no need to - you can buy them legally for less money (unless your time is totally worthless) than you can build them. They usually come with a warranty, though not a guarantee of suitability for this particular purpose!

2) Tough to defeat, if you want the pilots to be able to see through the windows - the military goggles that protect our soldiers are designed to protect against specific wavelengths - ultimately, if you want to see out the window, visible-band lasers can get IN the window. That makes this a tough problem, at least as long as the pilots are looking through the window. One solution (used for eye safety in my own lab) is to use light barriers (i.e., "walls") and then view the objects of interest with cameras. Even when a laser "paints" the camera, no one gets blinded, and the worst that happens is that a CCD array bites the dust. This kind of solution could potentially provide a countermeasure, albeit with serious consequences to things like depth perception, etc.

258 posted on 09/28/2004 10:30:38 PM PDT by TxPhysicist (Police response is 15 minutes, mine is about 15 seconds -- does that make me a first responder?)
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To: DB
Until the air ionizes it doesn't make any practical difference.

To ionize the air with laser light it take very large energy densities.

Yes, but I would think that the 1016W lasers people were talking about might ionize air, which would cause pretty severe attenuation. Smaller lasers aren't going to ionize air, and thus will be attenuated much less.

259 posted on 09/28/2004 10:31:13 PM PDT by supercat (If Kerry becomes President, nothing bad will happen for which he won't have an excuse.)
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To: AdamSelene235

Laser injures Delta pilot's eye
By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
http://washingtontimes.com/national/20040928-111356-3924r.htm


260 posted on 09/28/2004 10:31:18 PM PDT by mjfdl
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