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Bush, Kerry court Catholic vote in tight election
Yahoo News ^ | October 7, 2004

Posted on 10/07/2004 11:28:47 AM PDT by NYer

WASHINGTON (AFP) - US President George W. Bush (news - web sites) and Democratic rival John Kerry (news - web sites) are battling for support among Roman Catholics voters, an electorate divided between a Bible-reading Protestant president and a Catholic senator who supports abortion rights.

Bush, a born-again Methodist who signs off his speeches by saying "May God bless America," has never hidden his devotion to his faith, while Kerry has been more discreet about his religious beliefs.

But in an election that many predict will come down to the wire, both candidates are seeking to court as many voting blocs as possible. One-quarter of the US population, or 65 million people, is Catholic.

Bush in August made a speech before the Knights of Columbus, a Roman Catholic charitable organization that claims 1.6 million members in the United States and Canada, the Philippines, Mexico, Central America and the Caribbean.

And in June he met with Pope John Paul (news - web sites) II at the Vatican (news - web sites).

Bush opposes abortion and backs a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage, two key issues of concern among conservative Catholics.

In 2001, Bush banned the use of public funds for stem-cell research using human embryos, excepting those previously cultivated. The ban did not apply to private sector research.

Although Kerry does not usually talk publicly about his faith, he stole a Bush line last week when he concluded his televised debate with the Republican president by saying, "God Bless America."

The Massachusetts senator is often spotted in Church on Sundays receiving communion, but his position on abortion puts him in a difficult position with the US Catholic hierarchy, which has authorized its priests to refuse giving communion to politicians who support abortion.

Kerry has said that although he supports a woman's legal right to have an abortion, he personally opposes the procedure.

Although Kerry has voiced opposition to gay marriage, he opposes a constitutional ban on same-sex weddings.

Neither candidate has clearly won the Catholic vote, however.

A Pew institute poll released in mid-September showed 49 percent of Catholics favored Bush over Kerry, who garnered 42 percent of support.

In the 2000 election, a majority of Catholics voted for Bush. In the last 20 years, Bill Clinton (news - web sites) is the only Democrat to have won the Catholic vote, in his 1996 re-election campaign.

While Bush and Kerry seek out Catholic support, one political analyst says religion may not be a factor in the November 2 election.

"People don't vote based on their religious affiliation," said John White, a political science professor at Catholic University in Washington. "Being Catholic does not really matter to Americans when they go and vote anymore."

Although late president John Kennedy's Catholicism was an issue in the 1960 campaign, Kerry's faith has not been a concern in this mostly Protestant nation.

"Forty years ago, Catholics still felt the sting of discrimination, they still had yet (to get) into the White House," White said. "There was a strong sense of Catholic identity, nurtured by decades of job discrimination, ethnic discrimination. That has really come to an end."


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; Philosophy; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: catholicvote

Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry (news - web sites), shown here at St. Anthony's shrine in Boston in June 2004, is often spotted in Church* on Sundays receiving communion, but his position on abortion puts him in a difficult position with the US Catholic hierarchy.(AFP/File/Stephen Jaffe)


* - The Paulist Center attracts Catholics uncomfortable with some of the Vatican's orthodox teachings or who otherwise feel alienated from the Roman Catholic Church.

The congregation includes gay couples, whose adopted children are baptized there, unlike in some other Boston parishes. In November, its leaders refused to read aloud during Mass from a letter opposing gay marriage, as requested by the Massachusetts bishops.

The center does not resemble a traditional church, but is housed among a row of brownstones. A band plays during worship, and the lyrics are projected onto the wall above the pulpit so parishioners can sing along.

1 posted on 10/07/2004 11:28:47 AM PDT by NYer
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To: american colleen; sinkspur; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; ...

Pope John Paul (news - web sites) II blesses US President George W. Bush (news - web sites) (L) during their meeting at the Vatican (news - web sites) in June 2004. Bush opposes abortion and backs a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage, two key issues of concern among conservative Catholics.

Catholic Ping - let me know if you want on/off this list


2 posted on 10/07/2004 11:33:01 AM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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To: NYer
The congregation includes gay couples, whose adopted children are baptized there, unlike in some other Boston parishes....A band plays during worship, and the lyrics are projected onto the wall above the pulpit so parishioners can sing along.

Sounds exactly like a Madonna concert!

Do the priests were those cone-shaped bras?

3 posted on 10/07/2004 11:33:57 AM PDT by dead (I've got my eye out for Mullah Omar.)
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To: NYer
I would urge all Catholics to familiarize themselves with the life teachings of the Church and the consequences of supporting pro-abort candidates. If you Catholic and believe in the Church and believe in sin and in your soul, you owe it to yourself to know what the Church teaches about these matters.

p.s. Silly, unrelated question here. I rented Runaway Jury the other day, starring Gene Hackman and John Cusack. Dylan McDermott played Jacob Woods in the movie. I noticed that McDermott, however, was not included in the credits. I looked up the film and the cast and McDermott was listed as “uncredited.” Does anyone know the what and why of McDermott being “uncredited?” Thanks.

4 posted on 10/07/2004 11:34:29 AM PDT by Screaming Eagle Red Leg
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To: sneakers

bump to read when I'm not at work!


5 posted on 10/07/2004 11:35:52 AM PDT by sneakers
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To: NYer
As an evangelical Christian who has always supported only Pro-Life candidates, I am very happy to see so many Catholics beginning to vote on this issue with so much conviction. Keep up all the GREAT work!
6 posted on 10/07/2004 11:36:46 AM PDT by Clump
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To: Screaming Eagle Red Leg; Jakarta ex-pat
Ex-pat is the resident film genius, I think.

I know that directors will often refuse to allow their name on a movie if they feel it has been mangled in the final cut. There is a made-up name that gets the directorial credit instead, but for the moment that name escapes me. Maybe McDermott wanted his name off the film.

7 posted on 10/07/2004 11:44:15 AM PDT by grellis (Quick, someone post a Python graphic!)
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To: Clump
As an evangelical Christian who has always supported only Pro-Life candidates, I am very happy to see so many Catholics beginning to vote on this issue with so much conviction. Keep up all the GREAT work!

Unfortunately, a majority of Catholics still vote for pro-abort candidates. Much of this can be traced back to the pro-abort, pro-homosexual Cardinal Bernardin, who misled millions with his false teachings. Bernardin is no doubt now enjoying "life" in Hell.

8 posted on 10/07/2004 11:45:13 AM PDT by Screaming Eagle Red Leg
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To: NYer
"'People don't vote based on their religious affiliation,' said John White, a political science professor at Catholic University in Washington. 'Being Catholic does not really matter to Americans when they go and vote anymore.'"

A more nuanced approach would first ask what is meant by the "Catholic" vote. When nominal Catholics are excluded by only considering people who attend Mass with approximately the required frequency (or more), Bush is leading significantly. If the typical notion of Catholic vote includes 25% of the voting population, the more refined measure includes about 10%. With respect to this 10%, Catholicity matters. This election, this voting block is especially important in the Midwest and Great Lakes states.
9 posted on 10/07/2004 11:45:57 AM PDT by Warlord
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To: grellis

Thanks.


10 posted on 10/07/2004 11:46:09 AM PDT by Screaming Eagle Red Leg
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To: NYer

This is really great to hear. I am so embarrased by my fellow Catholics (esp. those in my parish) who have Kerry bumper stickers on. You can debate about what is the best method to help the poor or how to provide health care for those who do not have it but you can't debate the sanctity of life.

Vote Catholic, Not Kerry


11 posted on 10/07/2004 11:48:07 AM PDT by Trainer (9/11...Never forget, never forgive.)
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To: Warlord
A more nuanced approach would first ask what is meant by the "Catholic" vote.

Quite true. When a Protestant leaves his church, he will most often no longer consider himself to be Methodist, Presbyterian, etc. But a Catholic who hasn’t attended Mass in 20 years will still consider himself “Catholic” (unless he has become a member of a non-Catholic church).

12 posted on 10/07/2004 11:51:20 AM PDT by Screaming Eagle Red Leg
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To: Screaming Eagle Red Leg

Which is worse, Kerry or the progressivists who encourage him?


13 posted on 10/07/2004 11:52:13 AM PDT by charliemarlow
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To: Trainer
This is really great to hear. I am so embarrassed by my fellow Catholics (esp. those in my parish) who have Kerry bumper stickers on. You can debate about what is the best method to help the poor or how to provide health care for those who do not have it but you can't debate the sanctity of life.

Absolutely true! My fellow Catholics, to include, sadly, many priests, need to understand the difference between objective and subjective. Abortion is objectively wrong. It is “murder” (see Evangelium Vitae). Abortion is never acceptable.

Helping the poor, however, is subjective. Pro-abort “Catholics” need to grasp this concept.

I left my liberal parish about a year ago and now attend Mass at a parish with a priest who is faithful to the teachings of the Church.

14 posted on 10/07/2004 11:56:41 AM PDT by Screaming Eagle Red Leg
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To: NYer
Kerry has said that although he supports a woman's legal right to have an abortion, = flip
he personally opposes the procedure. = flop

Although Kerry has voiced opposition to gay marriage, = flip
he opposes a constitutional ban on same-sex weddings. = flop

Here is the way the media will spin this part.

A Pew institute poll released in mid-September showed 49 percent of Catholics favored Bush = Bush will be chastised for having the religious right favor him

over Kerry, who garnered 42 percent of support. = skerry will be praised for seeking support from "the other side".

15 posted on 10/07/2004 12:07:30 PM PDT by Arrowhead1952 (Anyone who votes for the john / john ticket is crazy.)
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To: Arrowhead1952

"Irish" Johnny has also gotten a free pass on his statement that he believes life begins at conception. How in the world can someone believe that life begins at conception and yet support abortion? If it is a life and you kill that innocent life, it is murder. Yet the media has given Kerry a free ride on this matter.


16 posted on 10/07/2004 12:13:05 PM PDT by Screaming Eagle Red Leg
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To: NYer

It is one thing to claim to be Catholic, or a person of faith period, it is another to actually be one. You can't simply redefine the church so that it conforms to your own desires / beliefs and then claim to be a member of that church.


17 posted on 10/07/2004 12:15:35 PM PDT by NavVet (Benedeict Arnold was wounded in battle fighting for America, but no one remembers him for that.)
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To: Trainer; Screaming Eagle Red Leg
This is really great to hear. I am so embarrased by my fellow Catholics (esp. those in my parish) who have Kerry bumper stickers on. You can debate about what is the best method to help the poor or how to provide health care for those who do not have it but you can't debate the sanctity of life.

Sounds like my diocese ... ultra liberal bishop. You can make a difference. Begin by sharing this informatin with the other parishioners.

Faith in Jesus Christ, who is «the way, the truth, and the life»(Jn 14:6), calls Christians to exert a greater effort in building a culture which, inspired by the Gospel, will reclaim the values and contents of the Catholic Tradition. 
The Participation of Catholics in Political Life

In the Catholic tradition, responsible citizenship is a virtue; participation in the political process is a moral obligation.

Though not related, you may want to familiarize yourself with information at this link. Bruce Sabalaskey has compiled one of the most authoritative resources on what constitutes a valid mass.
Is Your Mass Valid?
Two years ago, I used that information to stop liturgical abuse in my parish ... and won.

However, like Screaming Eagle Red Leg, that was only the tip of the iceberg. It was time to leave. After attending mass at other RC churches, I found myself in an Eastern Catholic Church one day, was totally captivated by the reverence and returned the following Sunday. Once again, I left the church in a state of peace. That Maronite Catholic Church is now my parish. No communion in the hand, no Eucharistic ministers, and the consecration is said in Aramaic, using the words and language of our Lord at the Last Supper.

"The Eastern Churches are the Treasures of the Catholic Church" -- Pope John XXIII

CATHOLIC RITES AND CHURCHES

And I'll bet you thought the Catholic Church was just the the Latin Rite.

18 posted on 10/07/2004 12:19:31 PM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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To: Screaming Eagle Red Leg
Yet the media has given Kerry a free ride on this matter.

Yet the LIBERAL dumbocRAT media gives Kerry free rides on all matters.

19 posted on 10/07/2004 12:21:30 PM PDT by Arrowhead1952 (Anyone who votes for the john / john ticket is crazy.)
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To: NYer
“The road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.” Saint John Eudes and St. John Chrysostom
20 posted on 10/07/2004 12:21:48 PM PDT by Screaming Eagle Red Leg
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To: Screaming Eagle Red Leg

He says life begins at conception.

Kerry believes this and still does not want to forbid the taking of that life, the life of someone just as innocent as he was at that age.

What sort of person is he?


21 posted on 10/07/2004 12:24:59 PM PDT by charliemarlow
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To: NYer

I have also found the Eastern Rite to be quite beautiful. Although I have not made the switch, I enjoy attending their Mass. Very spiritual. And at the particular Eastern Rite Parish I sometimes attend they have a huge photo of JP II prominently displayed in their lobby, a rarity in my archdiocese.


22 posted on 10/07/2004 12:26:24 PM PDT by Screaming Eagle Red Leg
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To: NavVet
You can't simply redefine the church so that it conforms to your own desires / beliefs and then claim to be a member of that church.

There is a name for this … Episcopalians!

23 posted on 10/07/2004 12:28:52 PM PDT by Screaming Eagle Red Leg
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To: NYer

Oh..no...I know about the Eastern Rites who are in communion with Rome. I have never attended their Masses but have been interested. Yes, the brouchure you have is very good. Also, there have been a number of articles in COLUMBIA (K of C monthly) talking about the role of religion and faith in politics. I think that they are starting to realize the importance of this election.

I think that some of our bishops are willing to take a stand (and it is about time) as well as some of our Catholic organizations. However, there are too many bishops who are cowards. If they are not willing to stand up, then how can they expect the faithful to do so? How can we expect politicians to respect us or listen to us?


24 posted on 10/07/2004 12:39:18 PM PDT by Trainer (9/11...Never forget, never forgive.)
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To: Screaming Eagle Red Leg

Bush's lead with Catholics must be shrinking by the day. Yesterday AP said Pew had Bush up 49/39! AP LIE ALERT!!!!!


25 posted on 10/07/2004 12:40:43 PM PDT by jmaroneps37 ( Kerry's not "one of us": catholicsagainstkerry.com. needs your help.)
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To: NYer
Two years ago, I used that information to stop liturgical abuse in my parish ... and won.

I went through a similar experience at my old parish, but I didn’t prevail. Liturgical abuse was rampant and I sat down and wrote my priest an 8-page letter, outlining the abuses and providing Church authority for the correct way to celebrate Mass. The priest and I met and talked about it and he agreed that I was right in all aspects, but that he wasn’t going to change anything.

He agreed that we should kneel during the consecration, but that the kneelers made too much noise going up and down. He agreed that only a person with Holy Orders could give the homily, but he needed a break every now and then. Etc., etc., etc.

I also got sick and tired of extraordinary ministers in jeans, T-shirts, and tennis shoes.

It was not easy to leave a parish where I had spent several years making friends, but when I finally did it, it was quite liberating.

See also:

http://www.catholic.com/library/liturgical_abuses.asp

26 posted on 10/07/2004 12:45:28 PM PDT by Screaming Eagle Red Leg
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To: Trainer
Trainer: Give the Eastern Rite a try. Even if you don't switch, you will enjoy it.

Yes, many of our bishops are horrible cowards, mine included. I would go so far as to consider him a pro-abort. Sickens me.

27 posted on 10/07/2004 12:48:08 PM PDT by Screaming Eagle Red Leg
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To: Screaming Eagle Red Leg
Another thing that happens at many parishes in our Archdiocese, to include the Cathedral, is that the word “men” is omitted from the Nicene Creed.
28 posted on 10/07/2004 12:57:32 PM PDT by Screaming Eagle Red Leg
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To: NYer

Any Catholic who votes for Kerry isn't really a Catholic. With his views on abortion, and ditching his first wife when she was having emotional problems, etc., etc., he has nothing to offer Catholics. He's against everything they believe in.


29 posted on 10/07/2004 12:58:47 PM PDT by MayflowerMadam
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To: Screaming Eagle Red Leg

I dated an Episcopalian once. He said he's a "J.V. Catholic." Thought that was pretty funny.


30 posted on 10/07/2004 1:00:18 PM PDT by MayflowerMadam
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To: NYer
"People don't vote based on their religious affiliation," said John White, a political science professor at Catholic University in Washington. "Being Catholic does not really matter to Americans when they go and vote anymore."

In a sense, this is true--and a good thing too. Denominationalism no longer matters in the way it once did, even for Catholics. Hence, there's no big move to put a Catholic in the White House this year.

But in a much more important sense, Christian faith certainly does matter to many voters. In fact, just the other day there was a great article posted here about the Values Voters (about 20%), and they are going overwhelmingly for Bush.

31 posted on 10/07/2004 1:05:28 PM PDT by madprof98
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To: NavVet; Trainer; Screaming Eagle Red Leg
You can't simply redefine the church so that it conforms to your own desires / beliefs and then claim to be a member of that church.

You are so right! Fortunately, there are some excellent resources available on the internet. Here is one of my favorites.

Solemn Warning! The following organizations are those who claim to be Catholic but dissent from the Truth as handed down from Jesus Christ, Second Person of the Most Blessed Trinity, the Divine Word, to His Apostles and their successors, the Pope and the Magisterium. These organizations are truly following in the footsteps of JUDAS - Just Undermine Doctrine And Spirituality. While they claim to be Catholic, they promote a man-made religion of unfettered pro-sin "choice" by the individual answerable to no one but himself (herself for the feminist reader), while promoting the spirituality of pagans. We all know what the serpent said to Eve; "you shall be as Gods" (Genesis 3:5).

Dissenting Organizations

32 posted on 10/07/2004 1:26:18 PM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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To: NYer

This article is a lie. See the details on my post, but:
1) Bush lost to gore 50/47
2) Gore won and won with Catholics, clinton was not the only rat to win Catholics
3) Pew said 49/39 NOT 49/42 BIG DIFFERENCE.


33 posted on 10/07/2004 1:29:01 PM PDT by jmaroneps37 ( Kerry's not "one of us": catholicsagainstkerry.com. needs your help.)
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To: Screaming Eagle Red Leg
Although I have not made the switch, I enjoy attending their Mass.

No need to switch! A Roman Catholic may attend the Divine Liturgy at any Eastern Catholic Church and fulfill their Sunday obligation. They may even join the parish! It's like the best of both worlds. Which Eastern Rite is it that you attended?

34 posted on 10/07/2004 1:29:17 PM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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To: Screaming Eagle Red Leg
I went through a similar experience at my old parish, but I didn’t prevail. Liturgical abuse was rampant and I sat down and wrote my priest an 8-page letter, outlining the abuses and providing Church authority for the correct way to celebrate Mass.

Good for you!! There will be a hefty price to be paid some day; may God have mercy on those prelates who have driven their flocks away.

35 posted on 10/07/2004 1:44:01 PM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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To: MayflowerMadam
Any Catholic who votes for Kerry isn't really a Catholic. With his views on abortion, and ditching his first wife when she was having emotional problems, etc., etc., he has nothing to offer Catholics. He's against everything they believe in.

I agree with this statement, but am amazed by those in the church who support Kerry over Bush.

My son is an 8th grader at a Catholic school and he's very politically charged - he's well known for his conservative views. He makes a point of finding who among his teachers are his "allies" and which are his "foes". One of the few nuns still teaching at the school is an unabashed Kerry supporter, and my son refers to her as "The Democrat Nun". But even at his young age, he sees a huge conflict there and has asked me on several occasions, how a nun could support someone who supports gay marriages and abortion.

My son tries to argue politics with this nun, although she refuses to do so at school (wish the public school teachers were so careful in spreading their views to students). I believe however, it's too difficult if not impossible for her to justify to him how she as a nun, can support someone who stands for everything she teaches against, and she knows it.

36 posted on 10/07/2004 1:53:05 PM PDT by BrynS728
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To: NYer
Oh, I realize I don’t have to leave the Roman Catholic Church to attend or join an Eastern Rite parish; by “switch” I just meant attending an Eastern Rite Mass regularly rather than a Roman Rite Mass.

The Eastern Rite Mass I sometimes attend is at a Byzantine Catholic Church. Including the prayers (chants) prior to the formal Mass, it takes about two hours.

Our Archdiocese also “offers” a Latin Mass each Sunday, although the Archbishop clearly doesn’t want too many people to know about it. It is not advertised (I only learned of it from a friend who attends a relatively orthodox parish) and it is held in a small chapel located in a flop-house section of downtown where parking is almost impossible, even on a Sunday morning. I think that our pro-abortion, pro-homosexuality Archbishop simply wants to be able to report to Rome that he offers the Latin Mass.

37 posted on 10/07/2004 1:54:47 PM PDT by Screaming Eagle Red Leg
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To: NYer

I was hoping that when the liturgical abuser left we would get an orthodox priest, but when Father Tinker Bell showed up, that was the last straw.


38 posted on 10/07/2004 1:57:34 PM PDT by Screaming Eagle Red Leg
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To: Screaming Eagle Red Leg
BTW, I was in SE Asia recently and it was hot, hot, hot. When we went to Mass, I was going to wear shorts. I thought nothing about it as many in my old parish wore shorts to Mass during the warmer weather. The people I was with had a conniption! There was no way in the world that I was going to Mass in shorts! Sure enough, no adult at any Mass I attended there wore shorts.

I just had to ensure that I got a seat in front of a fan!

39 posted on 10/07/2004 2:22:32 PM PDT by Screaming Eagle Red Leg
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To: Screaming Eagle Red Leg
I was hoping that when the liturgical abuser left we would get an orthodox priest, but when Father Tinker Bell showed up, that was the last straw.

ROFL! Ditto! Don't know about your diocese, but here at least, the general pattern is that the 'tinkerbells' are awarded the big parishes. The more orthodox priests, who speak up, are shipped off to the most remote parishes with the lowest attendance.

Two events sent me over the edge.

The first was the untimely "suicide" of an orthodox (whistle blowing) priest, who returned from a retreat to find a message on his answering maching inviting him to come down to the Chancery, ASAP. There, he was handed a document by the bishop's right hand man, denying he was the 'author' of a memo addressed to the Cardinal, identifying the multitude of abuses in this diocese. After signing the document, he was told to return on Monday for a personal meeting with the bishop. He was found dead on his kitchen floor, lieing on a blanket, face down, 24 hours later.

The 2nd event that shook me to the core was watching a Eucharistic Minister in my parish, drop a consecrated host on the ground, turn towards the 'tinkerbell' pastor for guidance, receive none, bend over, pick it up and toss it back into her Pyrex glass communion bowl.

After witnessing this display of total disrespect, I buried my head in my hands and asked our Lord to guide me to a holy man, a valid liturgy and a welcoming community. The response was swift. That is when I arrived at the Maronite Catholic parish, lost my heart and soul to the beautiful liturgy and total reverence for the Eucharist. I have never looked back. Our community includes a formerly RC couple who switched to the Melkite Catholic Rite while living in PA. There are no Melkite Catholic Churches in Albany NY, so they attend the Maronite Catholic Church.

Even without switching rites (though I am toying with the idea), you may find this article interesting.

The Rite Switch: Why Roman rite Catholics become Eastern rite

40 posted on 10/07/2004 4:32:26 PM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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To: dead
Do the priests were those cone-shaped bras?

Maybe they're miter-shaped.

41 posted on 10/07/2004 7:58:34 PM PDT by Aristotle721 ("What kind of society is it where Mother Teresa needs a lawyer?" - W.)
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