Posted on 11/17/2004 12:10:58 PM PST by sc2_ct
I'm sorry for the vanity, but this is really the only place that I could think of to try to get the opinions of some other people in regards to an incident that happened to me today. I understand the laws regarding my concealed handgun, and the state laws, but this situation just has me sort of stunned.
I was driving through a fairly nice area in a not-so-nice town to pick someone up from work to have lunch with them. As I was driving down the a two-lane (each way) road at 45mph, a car shot out in front of me with so little room that I locked up my brakes and swerved into the left lane. As I'm still skidding and swerving to avoid this guy, he jerked his car into the lane I was now in while flipping me off so I had to swerve back into the original lane. I ended up finally stopping and proceeded up but had to stop due to a car at a stop light and he pulled up next to me.
I was content to just sit there fuming in my car without causing an incident, but the next thing I know, I've got a 250+ LB yelling black man dressed like a thug jumping out of his car and moving toward my car. I was completely stunned by this turn of events, and I was blocked in between the car in front of me, him beside me, and a wall on my right, and blocked in from behind as well.
Just as I realized that there was nowhere I could drive to, I unholstered my Kel-Tec 9mm (being careful to keep it below the window line and hence not visible), and just then, the car in front started to move (taking a free right on red thank God), so I sped off between the cars and dodging through a red light. He was in a Lexus and I was in a Saturn, so it wasn't too long until he had caught up, but thankfully I like Auto-crossing so I managed to finally lose the guy.
After sitting in the car shaking for a minute or so (I never drive recklessly on streets, and haven't put myself in positions to have altercations in years) I put the pistol away and took an alternate route and had lunch.
I guess my mind's still racing since I can't really analyze my reactions. I know that legally once there was an opportunity to escape I was required by CT law to do so, but I just can't stop replaying the situation in my mind and wondering what I would have done had the car in front of me not turned. I've never been in a situation quite like that before, but this is the first (and hopefully the last) time I have ever taken my pistol out in a hostile situation. I guess the other possible outcomes just have me a bit shaken.
Well, has anyone else ever been in a similar situation or any observations on something I could have done differently?
Take the Bush 2004 sticker off of your vehicle.
s,
I'm sorry that I don't have a solution for you to the question you posted. I only offer one small bit of advice, which I recognize might not have helped in this specific situation:
Anytime you come to red light, stop sign, or other situation where you have to come to a complete stop, and there are cars in front of you, don't park on the bumper of the guy in front of you. Leave a good 3-4 feet between you.
That way if you have to scoot, you have enough room to make the turn and or accelerate. Yes it might be up and over the center island or the sidewalk, but if someone's coming up to the car or already shooting, any edge might help escaping.
I would have probably followed the guy and just as he was approaching a dangerous curve at a high rate of speed, shoot his tires out.
Sounds like you did everything just right after the situation developed.
Once upon a time there was a vehicle code prohibition against 'following too closely' and your situation was a good example of why it was good. When you come to a stop in traffic, don't get so close to the vehicle in front that an emergency - fender-bustin' - departure isn't possible. That is your legally required retreat.
If you are blocked in and retreating WITH your vehicle isn't possible then retreat IN your vehicle, away from the BG so that you can properly support your weapon with two hands. When you have retreated as far as you can, when you are as pure as the driven snow in the altercation, when you are in fear of your life and the BG breaks the plane of your window - open or closed - then use sufficient force just to deliver yourself from evil. And kill the BG.
Better tried by twelve men just and true than carried by six.
LOL, the only stickers I have on this vehicle is an American flag and an NRA emblem :)
Had the vehicle in front of you not moved chances are there will be a confrontation. there is really no way to determine if the police would see it your way. Your only defense would be he was coming towards you and you had not gotten out of the car. He would have had to open your door or shattered your window to be considered a life threat.
For future refference you might want to get a scrip to Combat Hangun. Thety have a section called self defence and the law. Very informative from real case files about both tragidies; the conflict and the court case that follows.
Prepare, plan, and be in yellow alert at all times.
I always leave a space between me and the car in front of me as an escape route just in case, and keep all doors locked at all times, obsessively.
I look rather intimidating and am ready to act intimidating if need be, i.e. loud insults, flipping bird etc. The look is my main defense and no one bothers me, ever.
Freeze plus P (tear gas) is terribly effective if need be, and a notch lower on the force continuum, if opportunity arises.
For lack of preperation you did fine tho.
I think most white people think they have a better chance of defusing the situation if their interlocutor is white, and most black people probably think they have a better chance of defusing the situation if their interlocutor is black.
A black guy probably would not like to think that he was backing down to or folding in the face of a white guy in a confrontation. It's an understandable feeling, and I think it leads to escalation of these kinds of things.
I do that all the time, it was just that how the other guys car was, there was no gap to get through until the car in front moved. I always leave about 6-8 feet between myself and the car in front of me so that I can get around the car if it doesn't move when the light turns green or and so that I can get out of the way if an emergency vehicle is coming through. Freeze plus P (tear gas) is terribly effective if need be, and a notch lower on the force continuum, if opportunity arises.
I'll probably do that and keep it on my from here on out. I've been hit with tear gas before (at a concert when I was a teenager that turned rowdy, and I just happened to be down-wind), so I know how much that stuff hurts LOL.
At the time you unholstered your sidearm, you had no opportunity to escape. As soon as you had the opportunity to escape, you did. I see no problem here. I also seriously doubt that this thug is the type to run to the police and tell them his version of the story. He's probably got a long rap sheet, and knows his credibility is zero.
Why would the guy be mad at you when he almost caused you to crash? Are you sure this is all there was to the incident?
My ex-wife was in a situation where a guy was trying to break into our house late at night during the winter in Colorado. She called the cops and told the guy she was gong to shoot if he didn’t leave. He broke his leg falling on the ice while running away. It was a nasty compound fracture and he was trying to tell the cops he was attacked by a woman with a gun. My wife asked the cop what she should have done in the situation. He replied, “You did the right thing. If he had come in after the warning, you should have shot him until the gun was empty and then thrown it at him. That way, we would have known you were in fear of your life.”
That's one of the things that has me so perplexed also. I have no clue why this guy behaved the way he did.
OH boy....
Call Ralph Sherman in West Hartford, he is a 2nd ammendment and self defense guy
He also has a website that you can ask a question from.
I believe because you were pinned in place, pulling the weapon was just fine, but until he placed his hands on you, shooting would have been wrong.
I can not reply based on CT law, but OK law. Understand, I fully sympathize with you. So, don't take my answer wrong:
Rule 1: NEVER unholster a weapon unless you intend to shoot. You were smart to keep the weapon below visibility of this kook. Here if you had been seen pulling a firearm, you are guilty of assualt.
Rule 2: Deadly force (your firearm) can only be used to defend against deadly force. As scary as a yelling 250 pound thug may be. Until he actually pulls a weapon or takes actions to (in reason) immediately put you in danger of losing your life, you cannot respond with deadly force. I do not believe his level of "road rage" we meet the test. If he had of started banging on your door or attempting to break your window, or even brandishing a wrench or ballbat. Then I think you can assume he intends you serious bodily harm and can use deadly force. However, you (at least here) cannot pull a weapon as a deterent - it is assumed that when a weapon is unholstered, it is your last option and you intend to shoot. If you aren't going to shoot, don't pull the weapon.
Rule 3: If you have an avenue of retreat that won't keep you or immediate family in danger, you must use it - this you did.
Bottom line is NEVER pull a weapon unless you have a clear cut reason to immediately use deadly force.
Now, here is how I actually feel(don't do this):
I wished you had been carrying something a little for impressive in looks (a Kel-Tec is small and looks like a toy). Pulled it and stuck it in his stupid face. I think he would have immediately soiled himself.
I have never quite understood why one cannot pull a weapon as a deterent. Sometimes, just opening a jacket to let some thug know you are armed may actually save the thugs life if it causes him to run away. I guess they do not want folks using a firearm as intimidation.
A couple of years ago, I was stopped at a stop light and a guy came up to the car and leaned into the window across my daughter. He asked if I had any money and I said no, because I didn't. I tried to find a way to get away from him but the cross traffic was so heavy and cars were going through the intersection at around 50 mph and I thought that if I tried to run the light that I would get both of us killed. I looked in the rear view mirror and I noticed that the car behind me had stopped several car lengths behind me because they could see the guy in my car. Thankfully, when I insisted that I had no money, the guy backed off.
After the terror subsided and I realized that my daughter was ok, I got angry. Yes, I should be able to take care of myself, but I wondered what happened to chivalry. My daughter and I were surrounded by men sitting in their cars and not one of them got out to see if I needed help. I know that my husband would have if he saw a woman in that situation.
Good rule of thumb is that you should be able to see the rear tires of the car in front of you.
You do really have to be aware of the laws of your state regarding self-defense if you're going to make the decision to carry a firearm, and that way you'll be able to gear your thinking and training in that direction. If you think your laws regarding self-defense are unreasonable, get involved with a pro-2A group in-state and start to do something about it. Glad everything turned out OK, but use this as an opportunity to educate yourself, and others.
"My daughter and I were surrounded by men sitting in their cars and not one of them got out to see if I needed help. I know that my husband would have if he saw a woman in that situation."
If I had of been present, I would have come to your aid. However, some police departments get testy about citizens helping others - I guess they think it hurts their job security.
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