Posted on 11/22/2004 7:45:06 AM PST by Pfesser
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Gunmen on Monday assassinated a member of an influential Sunni clerics' group that has called for a boycott of national elections, just a day after Iraqi officials announced the balloting would be held Jan. 30 in spite of rising violence in Iraq (news - web sites).
Meanwhile, Iraqi security forces recovered 12 bodies, including five decapitated ones, from an area south of Baghdad, police said Monday. One was identified as a member of the Iraqi National Guard. The bodies were found during a raid Sunday in Latifiyah, about 20 miles south of Baghdad, said Lt. Adnan Abdullah.
Sheik Faidh Mohamed Amin al-Faidhi, a member of the Association of Muslim Scholars, was shot by gunmen at his home in northern Mosul — a sign of the continuing violence that wracks the country.
The slaying could further alienate Iraq's Sunni Arab minority ahead of the Jan. 30 election. The association is already calling for a boycott of the vote, and if many Sunni heed its call, the legitimacy of the election could be deeply undermined.
In an interview with The Associated Press on Monday, Iraqi interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi said his government was determined to hold the election as scheduled. He described those calling for a boycott as "the eventual losers" and "a small minority."
"The forces of darkness and terrorism will not benefit from this democratic experience and will fight it," Allawi said. "But we are determined that this experiment succeeds."
The vote for the 275-member National Assembly will be Iraq's first election since Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s fall and is seen as a major step toward building democracy.
But the ongoing violence, which escalated this month with the U.S.-led offensive against Fallujah, has also raised concerns that balloting could be nearly a practical impossibility in insurgency-torn regions. Iraqi authorities insist ballots will be cast even in volatile areas — including Fallujah, Mosul and other parts of the Sunni Triangle.
Twenty nations, including Iraq's neighbors and Western and Arab countries, gathered in the Egyptian resort of Sharm al-Sheik for a conference aimed at showing support for Iraq.
The delegates intended to call on Allawi's government to reach out to its opponents to encourage broad participation in the election. According to a draft of the conference's final statement, they were also to underline their condemnation of "terrorism" in Iraq — a boost to Allawi's and the U.S. military's crackdown on insurgents.
In a gesture to Sunnis, Allawi on Monday ordered an inquiry into a raid by U.S. and Iraqi forces on Baghdad's Abu Hanifa mosque, one of the holiest Sunni shrines in Iraq. The raid just after Friday prayers left three people dead and enraged many Sunnis.
It also brought a condemnation from Iraq's leading Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani.
Allawi, a Shiite Muslim, conferred Sunday with Sunni officials on several issues, including the Abu Hanifa raid. Allawi told them that "although there had been reports of terrorist activity around the mosque, mistakes appeared to have been made and that he had ordered a full investigation," a statement by Allawi's office said.
Allawi's government has warned that Sunni clerics who incite violence will be considered as "participating in terrorism." Some already have been arrested.
Elsewhere Monday, a U.S. patrol that came under attack returned fire, killing two attackers in Hawija, about 150 miles north of Baghdad, according to witnesses. The U.S. military had no immediate confirmation.
The military said Monday a U.S. soldier died after he was wounded in an attack the night before in Baghdad. At least 1,222 members of the U.S. military have died since the beginning of the Iraq war in March 2003, according to an AP count.
The former police chief of the northern city of Mosul was arrested after allegations that his force allowed insurgents to take over police stations during this month's uprising, Deputy Gov. Khasro Gouran said Monday.
Brig. Gen. Mohammed Kheiri Barhawi was arrested Sunday by Kurdish militia in northern Irbil, where he fled after he was fired in the wake of the uprising
A rocket slammed into a residential district in the center of Baghdad on Monday, injuring five people including a child, witnesses said. The blast sent a giant cloud of black smoke rising over the eastern side of the Tigris River.
U.S. and Iraqi troops have been clearing the last of the resistance from Fallujah, the main rebel bastion stormed Nov. 8 in hopes of breaking the back of the insurgency before the election.
Allawi called the Fallujah assault was an unqualified success.
"We went to Fallujah and we broke their back," he told AP. "We found enough weapons there to destroy an entire country."
In Fallujah, Marine Maj. Jim West said Sunday that U.S. troops have found nearly 20 "atrocity sites" where insurgents imprisoned, tortured and murdered hostages. West said troops found rooms containing knives and black hoods, "many of them blood-covered."
The storming of Fallujah has heightened tensions throughout Sunni Arab areas, triggering a surge of clashes in Mosul, Beiji, Samarra, Ramadi and elsewhere.
The government's announcement Sunday that elections were set for Jan. 30 reflected Iraqi and U.S. determination to hold the vote despite the persistent violence.
Iraq's Shiites, believed to comprise about 60 percent of Iraq's nearly 26 million people, have been clamoring for an election, and voting is expected to go smoothly in northern areas ruled by the Kurds. But Sunni Arabs, estimated at about 20 percent of the population, fear domination by the Shiites.
During the January election, Iraqis will choose a National Assembly to draft a new constitution. If it's ratified, another election will be held in December 2005. Voters will also select 18 provincial councils and in Kurdish-ruled areas a regional assembly.
>stef, lemme see if I get this particular point of yours. You seem to be saying Hey, so what if the guy was mentally ill, it doesn't mean that people shouldn't do what he told them God wants them to do.
NO sir (oops, mam), that is not what I said. Please read my post more carefully. I've said what I've said and it's quite clear: It is that I am not willing to concede that Islam is evil just because some fellow on this site says the founder is a 'psychopath/schizophrenic/diabetic and that makes Islam evil'. Even if it was true, which I doubt-and I will make my own evaluation based on my own research-that STILL would not make Islam worthless any more than Van Gogh's illness makes his art worthless. If the artist who was clearly mentally ill in some way can produce brilliant art, it is possible Islam is valid regardless of its founder's alleged mental state.
>You compared Mohammed to Vincent Van Gogh, asking whether mental illness made Van Gogh less human or less gifted as an artist. Now, I consider myself pretty open-minded, but I don't think your analogy holds water. It's one thing to admire the aesthetic work of an individual who is mentally ill. It's quite another thing to take his advice on how to live your life and which people around you should live by your grace or die by your hands.
My point is that scriptures of all faiths are edited by those who come later for their own purposes. To assume the haditha is Islam as taught by its founder rather than the self-interested screed of later followers is just wrong, disingenuous, or naive. And no amount of bleating in long winded posts (not yours) is going to make it right. The original teachings of Christ for example have been bastardized ad nauseum by His followers- does that make Him an idiot?
>I don't have enough firsthand knowledge of Islam to have a credible personal opinion of Mohammed's mental state or of the religion's tenets. But to say that *if* he was mentally ill, it doesn't make the religion that he created any less valid... strikes me as odd, to say the least.
Yes, but following the Van Gogh example you must admit that it is as least possible that mental illness does not automatically preclude artistic genius or divine inspiration. It is highly unlikely the demonized Mohammed his followers and his enemies (plenty here, eh) portray is a clear picture of the man.
>I would never ask my neighborhood 'wacko' (to use your word) to tell me how to run my life.
Neither do I and I'm not recommending it either.
If truth was measured in kilobytes you would be the messiah, sir. But since you reveal your personal hostility in adolescent insults, sir, I will not waste my time on your post. You won't answer me and I'm not answering you bucko
Good post, thank you for your moderation, a commodity in short supply around here on this topic wouldn't you say?
I would be interested in what the "push was that came to shove" and caused the Sufis to fight. People fight all the time and it does not necessarily reflect on their religion but on themselves as people and/or their circumstances.
As for the Sunnis, they seem to be the most corrupted by the heresy of Wahhabism, a fascist cult if there ever was one. A lot of people here seem to want to make Islam out to be Wahhabism which is wrong. Am I right?
Lying about Islam is seen as a virtue, so? What a religion is at its core and what many of its followers say it is are usually miles apart. Liars who do so for cultural, personal, political, or any other reason are just that- liars, not true followers- and all this says nothing about the validity of the religion does it?
Go you little Christian fanatic killer- Go! Kill Muslims, yeah that will please your God
/puke/
Yeah, that's right. Innocent
There's no conservative ideal that justifies that ignorance.
You didn't read a word of what The_Reader_David or ApesFor Evolution wrote to you, did you?
What are you here for? Just to trivialize every comment that we make? You have been provided with links to various publications and several people have been good enough to spend their time to assist your edification on the matter under discussion, yet you retort with idiotic statements and personal attacks. I have corresponded with a number of followers of islam (not on this forum) and I'm happy to tell you most of them made more sense than you do. They were all at least willing to discuss the downside of their religion - unlike you. It's sad enough that apostates from islam have to fear for their lives, without a 'spiritual/religious-humanist' such as yourself defending the indefensible mohammad.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/
Not you again Nerks! You sir are a hostile bigot who has refused me the courtesy of a civil answer, resorting to crude insults and now you come back whining about ME?
Not gonna play your strange little game Sir
Amazing that more people do not recognize this for the seditious behavior that it is. Even some conservatives (Pat Buchanan springs to mind) buy into the chaos nonsense because they were against the war from the start.
-T
It does mean Muslims must speak up against the jihadists and against the perversion of Islam for evil political ends.
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When do you think the moderates will get around to speaking up? They've had years to do so and thus far they have shown zero inclination. All the clerics are radicalized Islamists. The religion will die (along with all the Muslims), if those who favor death over peace continue to dominate Islam.
-T
What Fred said.
True, as to the main of the body politic. The good news: more and more people are getting it, albeit not with our passion or attentiveness. They do know there is bias and take what is said with that in mind. Even my apolitical parents express amazement at the bias. We're winning, a little bit at a time. Incrementalism works both ways. Hehehehe....
Ok Apes-
We have nothing to discuss. Your mind is hermetically sealed shut and you will kill to prove your point. Good for you sir. Wonderful plan for winning the war on terror. Yep just kill all Muslims and we will be just fine.
uh huh
When did I say 'kill all the muslims'?
When do you think the moderates will get around to speaking up? They've had years to do so and thus far they have shown zero inclination. All the clerics are radicalized Islamists. The religion will die (along with all the Muslims), if those who favor death over peace continue to dominate Islam.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wahhabi death squads patrol the international Muslim community and threaten violence or worse so my guess is there is a great deal of fear amongst moderates. A person can barely argue for the existence of moderate Muslims on this board where we are amongst friends so how much worse do you suppose it is in a community where you can be easily KILLED not just bloviated to 'death'? I think there is great anguish amongst the moderates as they know all this threat is real. I feel sorry for them as they are caught between the radical killers posing as true Muslims and a hostile, fearful West. I am certain this comment will earn me the ire of a few macho men here who deperately need to look like tough guys. IE, those who have a great need to scream: Kill all Muslims, Mohammed is a pervert, nuke Dearborn (that's a classic) bbbbblllllllaaaaahhhhhbbbbbllllaaahhhhh!
>All clerics are radicalized Islamists.
Fortunately not; al-Sistani of Najaf comes to mind. He is no radical but has (my belief) the best interests of the Shi'ite community in mind. The Wahhabis or Ba'athist fascists have attempted to blow him up and failed. Prime example of the death sentence moderates live under. For your interest, and for the other person on this thread who does not think all Muslims are worthy of immediate death here are two links I have found useful:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=16030
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=16030
>The religion will die (along with all the Muslims), if those who favor death over peace continue to dominate Islam
Sadly I agree and I have practically begged moderates to speak up against the fascist killers. I am no longer willing to be silent while others scream for the non-existence of or death for moderate or ALL Muslims. That's why I'm calling out the radicals on this site to put up or shut up regarding their plans to win the war on terror. Be advised friends: I am not going to take insults instead of arguments, I am not going to accept bigoted blanket statements over reason regarding the nature of Islam or of moderate Muslims. I am going to zot you onto my 'do not reply or waste your breath on this hostile idiot' list if you (they) open a post to me with "Allah = Satan","Death to all Muslims","stefanbc is weenie psychotherapist who is a Muslim wannabe", or "Mohammed is a sorry loser" not to mention my favorite and still in first place, the grand winner in the lunacy sweepstakes: "Nuke Dearborn"
I have established my own personal Anti-Ping list which currently has 7 folks on board for espousing murder of innocents, launching unwarranted personal attacks or spewing the most vile racism and bigotry- all violations of the policy of this site, people. You 7: good bye, losers. For those of you who think this is YOUR site and want me to leave: grow up, answer the questions or shut up.
Only, unlike the head-cutting moon-good death-cult satan-worshippers of Islam, I would not be as inhumane. Two in the brain, two in the heart, just to be sure.
That's music to liberty-lover's ears.
What Muhammadans do to people in the name of Allahu Fubaru, *that* is violence.
I'm glad to know which side of the fence you've fallen...
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=16025
Here is the second link concerning moderate Muslims
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