Does Darwinism Attempt to Replace God?

11-30-2004 | W.T. Stewart

[jwalsh07]

And I agree with you. So now can we dispense with the notion that the Constitution was formed on the basis of the Bible? There are just too many conflicts between the two.

You're way behind the curve. Read a bit further up in the thread.

[Right in Wisconsin]

Good, because I really wasn't thrilled about the extra homework.

[Right in Wisconsin]

Tell me where it literally states that slavery is legal. My recollection is that at that time, it was normal in society. Big difference.

[Right in Wisconsin]

Actually, see 541, Patrick Henry is "quite contented" by the Christian foundation of this country. Your right, our country is not too keen on theocracies. Iran is a theocracy - a government imposing by force a religion, the Taliban - I would no longer have a head.

Having the moral background of our country based on Christian philosophy is not a theocracy, nor an imposition on anyone's freedom to practice or not to practice a religion. Last time I checked, we were the country that welcomes religious freedom and have the most diverse religous culture in the world.

Finally, being honest and saying I don't know is not being ignorant. It's called being honest. I don't believe I ignored anything posed, but if I did, by all means present it to me.

[Havoc]

You continue to maintain that what you state are The Facts, and that to disagree with or question you means to disagree with or question God Himself.

Oh, please. The drama is so thick in here now... No, I never claimed that to question me is to question God. That is your over-reaction to being corrected and not liking it. And it reaches to the core of argumentation - credibility. You've displayed that when proven wrong, the facts no longer matter and you will do anything to try and win by false means - like, stuffing the ballot box when the election goes against you. Dishonest people can't live with being betrayed for what they are. And now you display that by attacking me because your argument is a lie.

Scripture says God made Man from the dust of the earth - after he made animals. It does not say that he made man from the animals. The language rejects any case being made for that. And that isn't a matter of interpretation. It's like saying - I built a wagon from the timbers of the earth and having you come along and say - no it was made of steal, we're just misinterpreting timber to mean treas instead of metal. You stand language and common sense on it's head and pretend that getting it right is whacked because it serves your purposes to lie. Too bad.

[PatrickHenry]

Patrick Henry is "quite contented" by the Christian foundation of this country.

My contentment is based on the fact that the Founders were exceedingly moral people, they believed strongly in freedom and the rule of law and -- because they were aware of the sectarian madness that had caused centuries of war in England and in Europe -- they deliberately created a secular government in which all denominations can flourish.

To change subjects ... earlier you asked about the bible reference which says that pi is equal to 3. It's in 1 Kings 7:23, which discusses what is probably a circular fountain of some kind in front of Solomon's temple:

And [Solomon] made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

[jwalsh07]

So whats the correct answer Patrick. How many "cubits" did the line measure if the diameter of the tank was indeed exactly ten "cubits"?

[Right in Wisconsin]

IMHO, the first amendment limits only the legislative authority of the House and Senate of the United States (Congress). It does not limit the authority of a person to exercise her own personal religious beliefs like following the law of the Ten Commandments. These are mutually exclusive concepts.

[Right in Wisconsin]

Nice post. Thanks.

[jwalsh07]

Which one? LOL

[Right in Wisconsin]

Thanks again. I was trying to remember that phrase, but had a senior moment.

[PatrickHenry]

So whats the correct answer Patrick. How many "cubits" did the line measure if the diameter of the tank was indeed exactly ten "cubits"?

I don't understand the question. The passage says the "sea" was 10 cubits across, and 30 all around. Seems pretty clear. What are you asking?

[jwalsh07]

Well it wasn't a "sea", it was a vessel. So the question is simple. Assuming we know what a cubit measures and assuming the diameter of the vessel, not the rim but the vessel, was 10 cubits how many cubits should the guy with the cubit measuring line have measured?

[jwalsh07]

Well it wasn't a "sea", it was a vessel. So the question is simple. Assuming we know what a cubit measures and assuming the diameter of the vessel, not the rim but the vessel, was 10 cubits how many cubits should the guy with the cubit measuring line have measured?

[jwalsh07]

Oy vey!

[Right in Wisconsin]

Here, I hope this sheds some light. If not, I tried.

Biblical Math Mystery Solution for PI
by Roy A. Reinhold April 16, 2001
.

In reading the Bible, many people come across a description of the huge sea at Solomon's Temple, which held 2000 baths of water. They read the description in 1 Kings 7:23-26, and note that this water container was 10 cubits from brim to brim, circular in form, and was 30 cubits in circumference, and 5 cubits in height.
Skeptics take issue and say that either God didn't know the value for "pi" (3.1415927....) or else it proves that the Bible was written by men, and at the time they had no understanding of the relationship of :

pi = circumference of a circle divided by the diameter = 3.1415927...

The following is an exact possible solution:

1 Kings 7:23 Now he made the sea of cast metal ten cubits from brim to brim, circular in form, and its height was five cubits, and thirty cubits in circumference. (NASB)

Skeptics and non-believers, along with many who think the Bible is well worth studying, read the above verse and think to themselves that this is nonsense. Everyone who has completed High School knows that the circumference of a circle is "pi x diameter" or "pi x 2 x radius". So if the circumference were 30 cubits, and the diameter were 10 cubits, then the ancient value of pi was 3.0, which is not very good.

What I want the reader to think about is whether the text tells you inside diameter or outside diameter, and whether the circumference given is inside circumference or outside circumference?

To get the full picture, we need to know the thickness of the large cast metal container, and that's shown a few verses down in 1 Kings 7:26.

1 Kings 7:26 And it was a handbreath thick, and its brim was made like the brim of a cup, as a lily blossom; it could hold 2000 baths.

The following graphic from a top view, shows what it would look like, although I am leaving off the fluting of the top of the brim. The thickness of the metal tub or sea was a handbreath.



We all understand that there was fluting outward at the top, like a teacup, but we don't know how far down it started curving outwards. Likewise, the bottom of the sea probably was not abruptly a 90 degree corner, but was probably rounded. While these points would make the analysis more correct, we can ignore them for the purposes of this problem concerning the value of "pi".

The mistake that people make when reading 1 Kings 7:23, is to assume that the value of 10 cubits is the inside diameter, and 30 cubits is the inside circumference; or they assume that both are the outside parameters.

Let's take a look at the situation where 10 cubits is the outside diameter, and 30 cubits is the inside circumference.

First, what is a cubit? 1 cubit = 18 inches (distance from elbow to fingertip)

calculation of pi = circumference / diameter = (30 x 18) / (10 x 18) - (2 x handbreath in inches)

Since I consider myself an average size man, I measured my own handbreath and it is slightly over 4 inches. I have a good engineering ruler with hundreths of an inch, and my handbreath is ~4.05 inches.

calculation of pi = (30 x 18) / [(10 x 18) - (2 x 4.05)] = 540 / (180 - 8.10) = 3.1413613 = 3.1414

Let's compare our calculated value of 3.1414 to the real value of "pi", which is 3.1415927. Actually, the parameters given in 1 Kings 7:23-26 gives a direct value for "pi" that is within 2 parts in 10,000. I would call that fairly accurate.

Since the outside diameter of the sea is 10 cubits, what is the inside diameter?

inside diameter = circumference / pi = 30 / 3.1415927 = 9.5493 cubits

And, since the inside circumference is 30 cubits, what is the outside circumference?

outside circumference = diameter x pi = 10 x 3.1415927 = 31.4159 cubits.

Mystery Solved, the ancient people did have an understanding of PI. In fact, there is no way other than as done in the scriptures, where someone can give two even measurements of the sea and do it with economy of language (using the figures of 30 and 10 cubits to describe all the measurements of the molten sea).

[Right in Wisconsin]

ALL!!

[Trinity_Tx]

Now you've done it...

Oh Please, indeed. You're the one who's been so dramatic and, frankly, offensive with your gallingly presumptive judgements about others' motives and beliefs.

Knock it off. Debating the literacy of the Bible is fine. But you don't know other mens' hearts. So stop being so shamelessly quick to judge them.

As for me, you haven't "whacked" me (do get over yourself), I haven't "lied" and you have no foundation for saying I have. I wasn't the one you were even debating with. I simply noticed the injustice of yet another of your false and in this case, hypocritical, accusals upon someone else, and like you, "I have zero tolerance for it or unjust people."

And while I tend to hold my tongue through these flame wars, you happen to cross the line more than even I can take. Between your long-winded pontificating, calling people "liars" and "liberals", and presuming to know their hearts and relationship with God, I think you are the one who needs to do the introspecting.

(Frankly, after reading your "watching a guy's glass eye pop out of his head while his hands are raised in the air.. Full sized glass eye, spinning about on the floor while a full, real eye developed with sight in his socket." story, I'm suspecting projection, but I won't do your "diagnosis from a distance" routine.)

Either way, compared to other Christians here who manage to state their case without insulting everyone who disagrees, your Fruit is toxic with, not just subtle Pride, but pomposity.

Again, if you understand the meaning of "begging the question", it is you who do it; You presume to know -by God- that the genesis story of God creating man out of dust is literally true and say anyone who disagrees with your belief that God meant it to be the literal truth is calling God Himself a Liar - and your only support for such an accusation is that presumption alone.

[PatrickHenry]

So the question is simple. Assuming we know what a cubit measures and assuming the diameter of the vessel, not the rim but the vessel, was 10 cubits how many cubits should the guy with the cubit measuring line have measured?

If the diameter is 10 cubits, and if pi were the same then as it is now, it should have measured 31.41579 [etc.] cubits around. Does that answer your question?

[jwalsh07]

LOL, sure does and it should answer yours as well. Do you think cubits were gradated on the cubit measuring line to 5 decimal places?

I mean come on. A cubit is a measure from your elbow to your finger tips. Very exacting.