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To: dervish
Boteach told me all I needed to know about his value as a commentator by the direction he took the discussion.

Okay so we have agreed on the primacy of the words actually spoken.

That's a rather novel conclusion to make of the previous statement, but it's yours to make. If you are determined to find witches, you will find witches.

Personally, I think you are choking on gnats. My contention is while you remain fixated on the word "Jew," with "secular" as a modifier for Donahue, and the reverse for for the talking heads, in keeping with not arguing the obvious, Donohue's comments make better sense understood in the same way one would understand a soldier saying "we really had trouble with Iraqi armor." Armor, in and of itself, is no particular problem. Having to fight soldiers IN armored units is. I believe it is overly punctilious to look for reasons to criticize someone for neglecting to distinguish between the soldiers and the armor that makes them a problem.

If the secularists weren't wrapping themselves in the mantel of Jewishness, they'd have no pretense of moral standing from which to punish their critics.

I think there's a whole lot less of a chance Donahue secretly wishes to set up a death camp, than I think there is of his critics secretly desiring to set up a gulag for Americans who won't bow the knee to liberalism.

Rabbi Lapin does not say that the Jews who failed to protest sacrilegious art are Catholic or Christian haters, as Donohue says about Jews controlling Hollywood.

This is getting pretty ridiculous.

Would you be happier if I brought you a quote where Rabbi Lapin calls them bigots? I made it clear from the beginning my primary source was "America's Real War," not the linked article. You are not going to make a case based on textual criticism of Lapin's essay. His opinion of secular Jews is laid out quite clearly in his book, and is the basis of my own opinion.

Well here I really do disagree. European Muslims are only one part of the problem. Complicity by governments, the press and the populace who do not object and in fact take part in marches where anti-Semitism is promoted makes the problem much larger than just Muslims. Considering the modern history of Europe, that combination of promotion and blind eye is unacceptable in the face of mounting physical attacks on Jews. The “modern” Europe you refer to is a mere 50 years removed from genocide. Rabbi Lapin’s comments singling out America as different implies that he sees Europe differently too.

Be that as it may, you could make short work of my opinion by citing some European Christian attacks against Jews. I don't fault Jews for worrying over Christian anti-semitism in Europe, I can fault American Christians for imputing it. Jews do have a growing problem in Europe, but whatever part of it can be called "Christian" is vanishingly small.

In fact, if you google the name "Avi Lipkin" you will learn of the efforts of travelling Jewish Israeli speaker whose entire ministry is predicated on the idea strengthening Biblical Christians is Israel's best hope till Messiah comes.

147 posted on 12/27/2004 5:44:16 AM PST by papertyger
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To: papertyger
This is indeed “getting pretty ridiculous.” You post an article. I analyze it. And then when I demonstrate that the article does not make your point, you tell me you were really referring to the book/shrug.

That's a rather novel conclusion to make of the previous statement, but it's yours to make. If you are determined to find witches, you will find witches.

What is a “novel conclusion?” You indicated that you judged Boteach on his words. I agreed and proceeded to judge Donohue on his words as well. Your statement that I’m “determined to find witches” belies my careful and considered analysis of words spoken.

On Avi Lipkin, please go back to my first post where I discuss Evangelical Christians and how they differ from Catholics. But as a general matter, what is your point? So you cite Jews saying xyz. So what? Because they are Jewish does not make them unerring, or as I said earlier monolithic. There are many Jewish viewpoints and many Jews with non-Jewish viewpoints. Ditto Catholics. Ditto Christians. Do you want me to start citing the lousy things Catholics have to say about Mr Donohue because I can. Would that be meaningful? Or is it best to judge him on what he said not what others say about him?

My impression here is that the conversation is over. You ended it. I addressed sources but you made me and my supposed witch hunt the topic. That is not a conversation I am interested in having.

148 posted on 12/27/2004 9:03:00 AM PST by dervish (Europe can go to Islam)
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