Christopher Columbus' Remains

Netscape News ^ | 1/17/05 | DANIEL WOOLLS

[twigs]

Your arguments are some that I have read and convinced me that America has been visited regularly. Also, a tribe, I believe on Long Island, had a leader--a woman, whose name was Magnus. Not very Indian sounding! There were also rumors that some Indian tribes spoke, or at least understood, Welsh, which would seem to confirm that the Welsh prince--Maldoc?--did get to our shores with his boatloads of fellow Welsh. I've also read that there are documents in the Vatican archives that refer to priests sent here, or at least to an area that sounds like Northern US.

I still have two questions--which may not be very intelligent ones, which are: if Europeans got here, how come the wheel was not in use when later Europeans arrived? Of course, I'm assuming that the wheel was nowhere in use among NA Indians and I'm assuming that if a people were introduced to it, they would start to use it. Either may be incorrect assumptions. Two, wouldn't European contact have wiped out Natives from the diseases that later contact caused? I would think that oral history of such an event would have reached the ears of later European explorers. Just some thoughts.

Thanks for your post. This is a VERY interesting subject.

[CondorFlight]

"how come the wheel was not in use when later Europeans arrived?"

For a wheel to be useful, you need to pair animals with it (to draw a cart, etc.) Otherwise the wheel itself is not much of a help. But there were no horses or other large draft animals in N. America until after the Spanish arrived. (Reindeer??)

[yankeedame]

The most prominent one in the USA is NAGPRA, the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, which has been used to force the return of native remains and religious artifacts from museums.

To remove the remains from a museum to their resting place. To what purpose? So that the remains may "rest in peace"? Doesn't this imply a supernatural -- even religious -- connotation? But...but...if that's the case, and seeing NAGPRA is a federal mandate, what about the separation of church and state?

[twigs]

Thanks. There's a reason why I love to throw questions (at the risk of showing my ignorance) out on FR--I get great answers and I learn a lot! Many thanks!

[Verginius Rufus]

Actually, Al Gore discovered America, but he's too modest to tell people.

There is a recent book by a British scholar who claims that the Chinese discovered America in 1421, but that would be more than 400 years after the Norse.

[elli1]

You ever hear the one about "Oak Island" and the Knights of Templar?

Nope. But I been bizzy trying to track down Sasquatch. Seeing as how w/ the wind chill being in the minus double digits around here of late, I could use a trip to an island. Squatch is evidently holed up somewhere & ain't comin' out. 'tanks for da' tip!

[An Old Marine]

In Samuel Elliot Morison's excellent book "Christopher Columbus; Mariner" he mentions a manuscript found in the Spanish Archives by a scribe of Queen Isabella's court where Columbus cites speaking to Portuguese fishermen that have been "drying cleaning fish on the shores of a distant large island in the Western Ocean Sea for generations." He goes on to say that the Portuguese have established a small colony as a base for fish factory operations on this land.

The Vatican documents that you may be referring to might be letters from Bishop Erc (a Catholic saint) of Ireland to the Pope Vigilius that reports that St. Brendan had traveled to "Terra Repromissionis" (or Paradise) which he called a "most beautiful land with luxuriant vegetation". He went on to provide a murky description of the location of Terra Repromissionis that might have been anywhere. Its the opinion of a friend of mine (a naval officer with more than 30 years of experience) that St Brendan hit New England and returned to Ireland by way of the Canary Islands. Bishop Erc provides one other tantalizing fact: St Brendan left Ireland with 150 "monks" and returned with only 18. Further Brendan returned from his voyage with a "fruit" that sounded suspiciously like potatoes, a native North American vegetable.

The disease and wheel argument are two excellent points. Taking the second one first a disk object was found in 1946 when a suburb tract was being developed on Long Island. Carbon tests run in 1975 dated the wheel like object to 700 AD. It was rejected at the time (and regrettably tossed into a land fill) since "everyone knew" that American Indians didn't have wheels. There is a similar incident tied to a wheel along the St. Lawrence River.

As for disease I have a book somewhere here in the disaster area I call my office about this same point (sorry I couldn't easily find it). Its an old book I found about 40 years ago. As I remember the author asked the same question and it was hypothesized by a physician that an extended period of marginal isolation (about 20 years) would have probably turned over most (80%? maybe) of the power of contagions. If you are intersted I have other references. I got caught up with this subject a number of years ago and still have both notes and reference material floating around. Drop me an e-mail if you are interested.

[Ciexyz]

Maybe they'll find evidence of arsenic poisoning.

[twigs]

Very interesting. Thank you very much! Somewhere I read about a letter, I think found in German archives, that referenced the Catholic priests. IIRC, it was found in the late 19th century. I didn't know that St. Brendan was supposed to have left with so many fellow monks. I thought that isolated Irish monks traveled westward to live quietly by themselves. Morison's book also mentions the rotted hull of a book Columbus found on one of the islands. Another writer suggested that sounded like the Arab boats, forget their name. A teacher I had said that pictures had been found out west of Africans--obviously princes by the way they were dressed. Forget details. Actually, America wasn't all that far to the west in the northern ocean, so all this makes sense.

I would love to read what your book has to say about disease. I'd never heard it addressed before. If your office is like mine, I realize that you may never find it, but if you do, I'd love to know the name of it. Again, many thanks.

[LiveBait]

I personally, am not against NAGPRA, at least in many circumstances (some of its wilder applications are a little bit questionable). The collection of native cultural material and remains around the turn of the century was unethical to say the least, and NAGPRA is a positive step for native relations. If the graves of my great grandparents were dug up shortly after they were interred so that they could be put on display as savages, I would probably be pretty upset too.

On the other hand, in extreme cases NAGPRA can be quite questionable. Probably the most prominent case is that of the Kennewick man, which I'm sure you could find plenty of documentation on, if you are interested.

And, in my humble opinion, even if there is a "seperation of church and state," the state should be allowed to protect the inviobility of human remains at the request of the family/ancestors.

[Revolting cat!]

Ian Samwell discovered America!

[SunkenCiv]

Just adding this to the GGG catalog, not sending a general distribution.

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