Posted on 02/24/2005 11:01:28 AM PST by Unam Sanctam
TORONTO - Prime Minister Paul Martin said Thursday that Canada would opt out of the contentious U.S. missile defense program, a move that will further strain brittle relations between the neighbors but please Canadians who fear it could lead to an international arms race.
Martin, ending nearly two years of debate over whether Canada should participate in the development or operation of the multibillion-dollar program, said Ottawa would remain a close ally of Washington in the fight against global terrorism and continental security.
He said he intended to talk to President Bush (news - web sites) later Thursday and that Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice (news - web sites) had been informed of the decision earlier this week.
A State Department official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the United States had been informed beforehand of the decision, adding that Washington expects that cooperation with Canada will continue on a wide variety of issues.
Talking to reporters several minutes after his foreign minister first announced the move in the House of Commons, Martin said Canada would instead focus on strengthening its own military and defense in proposals laid out Wednesday in the federal budget.
"Canada recognizes the enormous burden that the United States shoulders, when it comes to international peace and security," Martin said. "The substantial increases made yesterday to our defense budget are a tangible indication that Canada intends to carry its full share of that responsibility."
The federal budget presented to the House of Commons calls for $10.5 billion in the next five years to increase the country's beleaguered armed forces — including an additional 5,000 soldiers and 3,000 reservists — the largest commitment to defense in two decades. It also called for another $807,950 to improve Canada's anti-terrorism efforts and security along the unarmed, 4,000-mile border with the United States.
When Bush visited Canada in December, he surprised Ottawa by making several unsolicited pitches for support of the defense shield, which is in the midst of testing interceptors capable of destroying incoming missiles targeted at North America.
Martin, who leads a tenuous minority government, has said Ottawa would not support what he called the "weaponization of space." Though he initially supported joining the program when he was a candidate for the Liberal leadership, Martin has retreated, since polls indicate that a majority of Canadians oppose it. Many believe that the umbrella, when fully implemented, could lead to an international arms race.
The Bush administration has tried to make a public show of understanding that Martin heads up a minority government that could fall over such a contentious debate.
But U.S. Ambassador Paul Cellucci told reporters Wednesday that he was perplexed over Canada's apparent decision to allow Washington to make the decision if a missile was headed toward its territory.
"Why would you want to give up sovereignty?" he said. "We don't get it. We think Canada would want to be in the room deciding what to do about an incoming missile that might be heading toward Canada."
Before you continue to talk about specifics, but say you don’t want to talk about specifics read a little here (official site):
http://www.acq.osd.mil/mda/mdalink/html/mdalink.html
Here are some of the space-based systems:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/warning.htm
Ever since Curtis Lemay, the majority of early warning systems against ICBMs was space-based, not ground based. It works better that way.
Here is a good example of such a specific system:
http://www.meicompany.com/text/fact_sheets/Defense_Support_Program.PDF
More general information, but official sites:
http://www.losangeles.af.mil/SMC/PA/Fact_Sheets/sbirs_fs.htm
It works a lot better when you try to move a little closer to what you want to see. Placing a big radar on top of the target which needs to see things on the other side of the planet (The point here is early warning) is not the best answer. Hard to understand but true.
Ft Greely, a little south from my home Fairbanks AK is where interceptor missiles are emplaced already today. Trying to stop a N. Korean missile from the Northern Territories with such a system is not a good answer either, or what do you think? What about the China threat? You think Canada is more suited than Alaska, Hawaii or the Pacific?
Even your Germany falls into the same boat as the Canadians. “Oh no, you bad Americans are destabilizing the world and will cause a new arms race!” Your media and politicians a few years ago. At the same time you spouted all the BS you signed a contract to be about 25% part of the MEADS program (A missile defense shield).
Fact is, the Canadians are a near insignificant player in National Missile Defense. While being a bad neighbor is not the intent, they really don’t matter much in this respect, so why do they talk so much about it? It can only be driven by some internal/domestic political gain. Not for basing, paying, C2 (NORAD will run fine without the Canadians-it will end without the US), technology or anything else. It’s nice if they play along and contribute a little, it’s the “responsible” thing to do. They will be covered by this system which is necessary, even Germany knows this, hence PAC3 Patriot and MEADS procurement. However, national security after 1989 has taken a different position and many politicians are willing to play games today which 20-30 years ago they whould have never dared do.
Red6
1992 or 1994 I believe. It was in Chretien's first term. The separatists lost by less than 1% of the vote.
Next!
Canada would not mind if the US got hit; and they know that nobody's going to bother attacking Canada, so why should they support missile defense?
The NSA has more important things to do than conduct espionage on a decaying economy. These national assets are leveraged in Iraq, Iran, Columbia, Afghanistan and elsewhere. These are high risk of failure, high cost, high political consequence, high human toll endeavors and these assets were and are used for this.
The NSA (Echelon which you are referring to) was formed in the 40s I believe. Great Britain, New Zealand, Canada are all part of it and have full access (It’s not even American only). Germany and many others CHOSE not to pay. A few years back the EU tried to strong arm access into the NSA and was “shocked” when they were told “no” in Portugal. No-pay, no-see. Ever since then it’s a big game where massive accusations are flying so that they can freeload a little there too. Let me in, or else I’ll accuse you of “XYZ”. It’s a big game. Ironically, some Germans used to have some access in the past, but no longer after the EU wanted to flex their muscle and force access.
If you’re worried about industrial espionage and Echelon, I would try to research Frencheon (The nickname for the French clone of the US/Brit system). The French DO conduct massive industrial and defense related espionage. They even were caught red handed bugging business class seats on Air France (Check it up).
Not every “Schneeball/Snowball” in Germany is a listening station. In fact, I doubt there is much if any today since you’re not the center of gravity anymore (It’s all shifted). It’s not where the action is. Most of the white snowballs are to cover satellite dishes to protect them from rain and snow. You’ll find them everywhere. Sorry Pal, your not that important. You’re important in many ways, and in some aspects very important, but not to where you are a high priority for intel collection. If anything the US is focusing on CI (Counter Intel), your version of MAD (Militaerischer Abschirm Dienst) since Germany is full of Russians, Serbs, Iranians, some AQ and others (That’s not meant as an insult).
Make nothing big out of it. Bush gets along with many in Germany, but no Schroeder or Fischer, nor will he EVER! I said this to you before-Turkey and the UN vote on Iraq killed any reconciliation possibility between the two.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1348501/posts?page=12#12
Germans like Colin Powell. But he was also a Commander in Germany when Greens threw red paint in a generals face. What do you think Colin Powell “really” thinks about Fischer? Remember what Colin Powell did and where he was stationed and what he was in charge of. Though Powell is gone, Rice will see things no different (despite all the hugs now).
Red6
Well, maybe he's from Alsass Lorain? :)
Red6
You've got some excellent posts on this thread.
Pinging self to go to said website...
Thanks for your candid, informative and patient replies, mitchbert and northernlightsII. Yes, most Canadians are anti-USA leftists. That said, though, a very sizable percentage are not. There is even now a growing pro-USA movement among conservatives in Canada. Thank you all for your hard work in that movement.
To all others who read this thread, on helping with the missile defense system program, Canada has a population (about 32 million, last I looked) that is not much larger than California. They already pay enormous taxes. So Canada cannot afford to spend much on the missile defense system program, and there hasn't been a need for Canada to operate the old radar lines (three lines in the past, IIRC) for a long time (obsolete system). Canada does support us with security in other ways, quietly and expensively for a nation with such a small population to give revenues to such efforts. And PM Martin is, of course, playing politics.
Know that support for conservatism and working with the USA as an ally is growing in Canada.
Unless we design the system to allow all missiles just above our northern border to strike their targets. Or make them think this will happen.
Bet you will hear a lot of whining from the Canadians.
It's already about to start, with N Korea, Iran, etc developing atomic weapons.
"Prime Minister Paul Martin?" "George Bush here. Sorry for your loss. Toronto used to have a fun hockey team. What do you plan to do with your new glowing parking lot? If only you had the wisdom to support our missile defense program."
No doubt the Canadian Liberals will try to argue that they have something like that in mind, but in reality they want to act like there's nobody on the other side of their only real international boundary.
BTW, I'm not saying Canadians can't do anything they wish with their country, just that some of the things they have in mind are acts of war against the United States.
There are other examples ~ blow up a newly developed thermonuclear weapon at Lake of the Woods, drain Lake Erie, poison Lake Ontario, etc.
saving to read later.
I just don't want all our extra trees to be hit ;)
it's official. Canadians are stupid. Missile defence is about the most sensible thing in todays world.
What the tool Dither's has done is make it very easy to push Canada to the sidelines on issues where continental defense are concerned.
I surmise that right now the order has gone out from the White House to the defense staff that whenever, where ever anything remotely involving BMD is discussed, tested, reviewed, any Canadian personel at NORAD must not be present.
If one of our guys is present, they leave the room.
If a test fire is done and it could be detected by NORAD, the canadian personel leave the area.
Soon I expect that NORAD, like the DEW line will be deemed obsolete, of course our government here in socialist "tomorrowland" will be told we can run it ourselves if we like, just to keep the facilities on Canadian soil.
First it was SSM, now this, can I claim political refugee status in the US?
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