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To: twinself
Dear twinself. You take it:
1) way too personal
2) twist it in the favour of your new friends
I believe that there is nothing wrong with that.
However, when Pole speaks about Russia, there is undeniably, a bias. Some sort of jealosy mixed with what not. Get over with that. Look into the future.
I ain't Putin, nor I am personally responsible for USSR past transgressions. If you prefer to live by what happened in the past - that is your choice. I do not.
Your advices on independence for Chechnya are leftist, idealistic and out of historical context. I wrote you already, that if they lived on robbing others and kidnapping their children for ransome, no one, I repeat, no one will give them independence. No matter whether it is Alexander II, baaadd Stalin, or enlightened RR. That just doesn happen.
How about giving Iraq independence? Just right now. Unconditionally. Just because - for the sake of it.
If Chechens were to live independently, they should learn how to live responsibly and face the consequences of what they do. So far they did not (like Dagestan, 1999). So far they do not deserve sovereignity. I wonder, if Chechnya bordered Poland, how would your country (sic! not you) deal with that?
PS: I have to correct you on the geography again. You said: "Kazan and conquer of khanates was only the beginning and the moment when Russian military presence in Northern Caucasia started."
Have you ever looked at the map? Do you have a slightest idea where Kazan and where Northern Caucasses is? Just to educate you a bit. Kazan-Moscow=720 km. Kazan-Grozny (capital of Chechnya, FYI)=1440 km. How come, that by conquering Tatars (who in their own turn consequently burned Russian cities between 13th and 16th century) Russia started her military presence on Northern Caucasses? This really shows your level of argumentation. Very emotional, no long-sought rationale.
174 posted on 03/15/2005 1:51:32 AM PST by K. Smirnov (Do not let the sands of time get into your lunch)
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To: K. Smirnov
It's quite fortunate that your bias accusation do not shed some light on your own bias towards the Chechen's struggle.

Before you start to educate me about geography and we look into bright future together I am going to educate you about your own history a little bit, if you don't mind, of course. After conquering Kazan, Ivan the Terrible turned to the South and tried to conquer Khanates of Astrakhan and Krimean Khanate in the following years.

(...)The next objective of Ivan the Terrible was the Astrakhan Khanate which at that time was ruled by Khan Yamgurtsy, vassal of Crimea. At that time Astrakhan remained in conflict with Nogai Horde, which asked the Russians for assistance. In 1554 a Russian army seized Astrakhan practically without a fight and it placed the Tsar's ally Derwish Ali on the throne (ultimately, in 1566 Astrakhan was annexed to the state of Tsars).

From www.allempires.com.

I am not judging his deeds, perhaps it was vital for Russia's further existance but the fact is that is when Russian military influence in Northern Caucasus region started practically at that time.

Iraqi argument is out of place in my humble opinion. USA respects the results of democratic elections by the Iraqi people while Russia has just murdered Chechnya's democratically elected president scapegoating him for Beslan and calling him "a terrorist". That makes just a small difference, doesn't it?

You claim that noone will give them independence. Well, I think Stalin would say exactly the same thing about Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania or Ukraine in 1945. That they do not deserve sovereignity. But people like Stalin or Putin come and go and unbreakable spirit of independence lives on, you know. So maybe not during our lives, but later - who knows...

P.S.

Please tell me, why do you think I am emotional ;)?
175 posted on 03/15/2005 3:11:28 AM PST by twinself
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