Schiavo's 'Dr. Humane Death' Got 1980 Diagnosis Wrong

http://www.gopusa.com/news/2005/april/0412_schiavo_doctor1.shtml ^

[kcvl]

Schiavo's 'Dr. Humane Death' Got 1980 Diagnosis Wrong By Jeff Johnson CNSNews.com Senior Staff Writer April 12, 2005

(CNSNews.com) -- A neurologist hired by Michael Schiavo to confirm that his wife Terri was in a persistent vegetative state said he was "105 percent sure" of that diagnosis, but Dr. Ronald Cranford expressed similar certainty about a patient he examined in 1980 who later regained both consciousness and the ability to communicate.

Three days before Terri Schiavo's death, Cranford appeared on the MSNBC talk program, "Scarborough Country," to discuss her condition. Cranford was interviewed by reporter Lisa Daniels.

http://www.gopusa.com/news/2005/april/0412_schiavo_doctor1.shtml

[sodpoodle]

One of those who opted out of the program refers to the club as;

The Witless Protection Program for F*rts and the Freepers that love them.

Now I'll get banned for sure;)

sp

[blueriver]

I see so things have turned around so much in this country that you now need evidence to prevent a woman from being killed. It appears as if we have come a long way in this country just to take a giant step back into the days of barbarism.

[Future Useless Eater]

You are calling Ohioan a liar and claiming false evidence. I don't know why I will bother you since you are quoting Felos-lingo, and usually that means you are hopeless, but here goes anyway.... Try THIS bit of 'worthless Shindler evidence' which was entered into court records:

she is not just a head on a pillow. She can't respond much but she can respond, and she does respond a little bit, not much. But enough to give ... hope.

SO, now you are probably FUMING: why the NERVE of those dad-blasted SCHINDLERS making up cr@p like THAT!!!!!

Well here is that same evidence again, in context:

November 1992 - Opening Statements, Medical Malpractice Trial [MICHAEL's ATTORNEY speaking]

You'll find from the evidence past medical bills and lost earnings are in the neighborhood of $500,000, and to care for her in the future and compensate her for lost earnings, obviously, she cannot work. And if she lives a normal life expectancy, fifty-one years, and the cost of that, depending on whether or not in an institution or Mike takes her home is between 12 and 16 million dollars. They say, well, she doesn't have a normal life expectancy. You'll hear if she receives proper treatment, there's no reason why she shouldn't. And she is not just a head on a pillow. She can't respond much but she can respond, and she does respond a little bit, not much. But enough to give him hope.

You see, it was only Michael who started lying in 1993 after getting her money. ALL the others, the caregivers, nurses, the specialists who spent lots of time with her, the priests, her parents, her friends, the paralegals and attorneys, they KEPT RIGHT ON noticing that she was somewhat responsive, right on up thru 2005.

And THAT's just on the one half of the judge Greer 'opinion' that condemned her. The other half is whether or not Michael is lying about Terri's wishes to die.

Lots of people, Diane Meyers, Jan Casler, Cyndi Brashers Shook, Trudy Capone, the four Schindlers, and I believe others, all offered good evidence from before her 'attack', and from statements Michael spoke prior to 1993, that she WANTED to live, even in a situation like that. Other evidence pointed to Michael repeatedly saying the two had NEVER talked about this.

The Schindlers position is the DEFAULT position the law is SUPPOSED to assume unless the situation is 'clear and convincing' otherwise. Greer discounted and ignored all the non-Michael evidence, even though Schindlers had no money to gain by lying.

Greer chose to believe Michael instead for some unexplicable reason.

[sodpoodle]

If "just shut up and take it" is both your pseudonym and your philosopy - no more needs to be written.

We got it.

We don't need it.

You keep it.

[psychedelicate63]

Amen and Amen

[justshutupandtakeit]

Nothing has "turned around" in this country and cases like this would never have even been an issue twenty years ago. After fifteen years of fruitless efforts to return this woman to a semblence of life and millions of dollars wasted sensible people decided enough was enough.

Such a semblence can be maintained in most patients pretty much indefinitely as long as the money is there. Only since "free" money from the taxpayer became easy to get have such cases even risen to notice. Without that TS would have been dead over a decade ago.

Where did the Schindlers get the money to pay for their campaign?

[justshutupandtakeit]

I did not call Ohio a Liar. Liars knowingly tell falsehoods but not all tellers of falsehoods are liars. This is probably too difficult for you to comprehend but ask someone and they may help you.

That little bit of OPINION from the Schindlers means nothing when put against the tests indicating they were allowing their imagination/hopes/wishes to get the best of them. MS repeating it while trying to shill money from the insurance company (which never should have been granted) does not make it any more meaningful. Nor does it account for the progressive and irreversible degeneration of her brain in the intervening 13 years.

It is an outright LIE that "all" the others thought she was still there. In fact, the neutral doctor agreed to by both sides did NOT.

And it is a LIE that there was an "attack" unless you mean "collapse."

Where did the Schindlers get the money to pay for dragging out Terri's death? How many millions were wasted on this fruitless endeavor?

[justshutupandtakeit]

If you can read look up "ironic" or "irony" in the dictionary.

[Miss Behave]

FUE, I posted this on another thread, but feel that is germane to the discussion here as well:

FR Poster "Republic" wrote this:

"It is against the laws of the hospice foundation to hasten death or accept non terminally ill patients.

Terri was neither...but she survived in that house of death for almost FIVE YEARS."

And I wrote this:

Five years of HELL.

*Husband* ordered NO light (shades down at all times,) NO music or TV, No basic dental/oral hygiene care (resulting in the pulling and FALLING OUT of her TEETH,) NO doctor ordered/highly recommended antibiotics (*husband* over-rode doctor's orders,) No BASIC circulatory, occupational, speech, or swallow therapy, NO flowers, and NO outdoor experience. FOR YEARS. NOTHING. NOTHING.

And is it common knowledge that lack of adequate dental/oral care/hygiene is a HUGE invite to a whole HOST of INFECTIONS.

*Husband* ordered BOTH no oral care AND no needed/recommended antibiotics for infections that Terri had.

It all sickens me.

[winstonchurchill]

My grandmother is in a nursing home with alzheimers and it will be over my families dead bodies before we starve her to death.

Here's a news flash for you: don't get too cocky, because that is probably how she will die. Eventually most Alzheimer's patients lose the ability to swallow and die from starvation and/or dehydration -- a very painless form of death. Of course, well before that, they lose all cognitive ability. It is a brutal, heartless form of degeneration. The most you can hope for is a quick death.

[Snoopers-868th]

The more I read the more I am absolutely against the organ program altogether. These zealots in the medical profession cannot be stopped. There is always a serial killer/grave robber somewhere. I am going to be carring one of those NO DONOR cards and I am going to have a medical bracelet stating the same. The tatoo idea was a bit much but it makes one consider it.

I do find it especially coincidental that with zeal they take the organs of a person not even dead to give to a person who WOULD be dead without the organs. Geez, which person has the most value. It is in the eye of the beholder!

Anyone have any links on success rates of the various type of transplants?

[Snoopers-868th]

See #131, sorry I intended to include you both.

[yellowdoghunter]

Thanks for your insight. We pretty well know the routine, my great-grandmother also had alzheimers and was in a nursing home once she needed 24 hour care. We did have to feed her at the end, (Yes, me and my family did go up and feed her for many of her meals, if not us, the nurse would do it) mainly because she forgot how to eat, or what she was supposed to do with her food. In the end, she had heart failure one day, it was over very quickly. She was the most important person in my life and I greatly miss her.

I have a feeling her daughter, my grandma, will go the same way. We pray that God's will be done.

I must disagree with one point you made, I do not think starvation/dehydration is painless.

[bjs1779]

I think MS had the teeth pulled to spite the Shindlers like everything else he does. This was during a period which he had forbidden the parents visitation rights so he knew it would grieve them even more not to be able to see her. Then he came up with the idea that the Schindlers would have to PAY in order to see her. There were two faxes from Ms. Bushnell concerning both matters that I can't find any longer.

[winstonchurchill]

Lots of people, Diane Meyers, Jan Casler, Cyndi Brashers Shook, Trudy Capone, the four Schindlers, and I believe others, all offered good evidence from before her 'attack',...

I doubt that a few facts will slow you up, but try the following: (i) no one restricted the evidence presented by the parents in the trial, yet (ii) the parents presented only two (2) witnesses: the mother and Diane Meyers. The mother testified that Terri's comments to her occurred when Terri was 11 or 12 years old. Diane placed the same statements much later (but the judge felt they were most consistent with the circumstances of the mid-70's -- the same time frame as the mother's testimony).

Of course, the other side had three separate statements at separate times from Terri to Michael, to Scott and to Joan; all as an adult. But it was just like that terrible, awful Judge Greer to give more weight to an adult's thoughts than to her comments when she was a pre-teen. Why that sounds like "pre-teen-ism" -- discrimination against the serious opinions of pre-teens.

So, I suppose the most piercing question is: If there was all this "good evidence" out there, why didn't the parents' lawyers present it? Wait a minute. They must have been in league with that terrible, awful Michael. That's it. Sure. Boy, why didn't I think of that sooner? Those parents' lawyers, they're just part of the 'culture of death?' Yup, that's it.

OK, forge on with your frothy diatribe.

[winstonchurchill]

Anyone have any links on success rates of the various type of transplants?

I don't have any statistics, but I have some anecdotal evidence. My cousin had rheumatic fever as a child and his heart was damaged. Gradually it got worse. When he was 43 (with two young children) he had his first heart transplant. Last year that heart finally failed and he had his second. Almost 20 years after he would have died, he lives a very good life today enjoying his wife and his grandchildren. Don't turn against the organ donation programs.

[Miss Behave]

"I think MS had the teeth pulled to spite the Shindlers like everything else he does. This was during a period which he had forbidden the parents visitation rights so he knew it would grieve them even more not to be able to see her. Then he came up with the idea that the Schindlers would have to PAY in order to see her. There were two faxes from Ms. Bushnell concerning both matters that I can't find any longer."

Dear Lord above. Just when I think it can't be any worse....

Some teeth were pulled, while others fell out, as you can imagine they would, given the horrid state of Terri's mouth due to the *husband's* strict, inhumane orders.

[Ohioan from Florida]

I am stating that almost every piece of "evidence" used by the Schindler supporters is worthless. There is no argument used based upon anything but emotion and hysteria fueled by falsehoods.

You must be looking at different documents than the ones I have looked at. If you look at the discharge document I linked you to, you will see that even in that report, Terri made progress. There are others that I didn't link you to that show she made further progress. That's not emotion, hysteria, nor falsehood.

Most of what is purported as evidence, when examined, cannot stand.

What do you mean stand? When examined by whom? Sure, the court didn't take this stuff into consideration. That's partly because I think the Schindlers had lousy legal representation when their case first went before the judge. That doesn't mean that it couldn't have stood in front of a court if a different lawyer had represented them from the get go. It aligns much better with the idea of "you get what you pay for". Michael could afford a high-priced attorney for two reasons: 1.) he had won $300,000 in 1993 for loss of consortium and 2.) the judge approved of lawyers' fees for him coming out of Terri's malpractice fund. The Schindlers had nothing like that, so their lawyer worked pro-bono for a long time.

But what can be expected from those hurling around charges of "murder", "conspiracy", "corruption" without the slightest evidence?

You may have lumped the whole group of Terri supporters into the same mix based on the posts of a few. Don't overgeneralize. There's a lot more people reading the Terri threads and who support her cause than actually post. I have requests from many FR members to be on the ping list and I rarely see them post on the topic. As for the "slightest evidence", again, I assure you that there is plenty of evidence to suggest that something was amiss in the way Terri's case panned out. A good and honest person could see that if they looked at enough information. You seem to dislike the RAT media based on your tagline. Maybe you didn't do as much looking into things as you could have. There are definitely some FReepers who will admit that they are for the euthanasia agenda (who knows, maybe you're one of them?). Maybe you got some of your info from them. I can't say. I just know that what I've seen and read leads me to believe that Michael was less than honest about his wife's wishes, and that he didn't care enough about her to let her die with her loved ones at her bedside at the moment of death.

Where did the Schindlers get the money for this decades long distraction? Who was funding this?

Hey, I thought you were a super-sleuth! It's not like the Schindlers have hidden anything from view. Their first ill-equipped attorney was Pamela Campbell, then Pat Anderson did most of the pro-bono work. Once they got the Foundation up and running, I'm going to assume that some of the legal fees were paid for by those donations sent to them, though I do not know this for sure. I am gonna take a wild hunch and say that most of the help they've been getting has been donated by various groups who believe in Terri's fight. You might call them wacko right-wing pro-life extremists if you'd like, but that would hardly be accurate.

[Ohioan from Florida]

Since dying from starvation and dehydration is so painless, why have we worried about people who have been in famines? Why do we bother helping those people out who can't provide this for themselves? All this time I was under the impression that going without food was a horrible way to live, but now that I know better, I think the USA shouldn't spend any $$ on taking care of impoverished people of the world! /sarc

[Snoopers-868th]

Although I am happy for you that your cousin has lived another 20 years it begs the question? At whose expense. Your cousin would have died a 'natural' death as opposed to what is taking place. When a natural death process is not as important as the process to preserve the organ it has to stop. The twisted and bent rules surrounding the entire process, including the legal process, have reinforced my position. This is goulish and I will be carried away by police before I leave a loved one in a hospital bed after death. They won't want the scene they will get from me.