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To: kingattax

"11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."


That sounds like the Islamic point of view.


15 posted on 04/12/2005 2:01:48 PM PDT by Blzbba ("Under every stone lurks a politician. " Aristophanes, 410 BC)
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To: Blzbba
not hardly..this is referring to Church leadership and authority, NOT the general treatment of a woman.

Ephesians 5:22-33

22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church– 30for we are members of his body.

31“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”[c] 32This is a profound mystery–but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Does THAT "sound Islamic" ?

33 posted on 04/12/2005 2:16:25 PM PDT by kingattax
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To: Blzbba

Didn't anybody read the Pope's explanation for not ordaining women? Quite explicitly he said, "I don't have the authority."

This is not an assertion of papal power. It's an assertion of papal subordination to Christ.

And it has nothing to do with any supposed "inferiority" of women. Think: if the Blessed Virgin mary had appeared to John Paul II, which of them would have fallen on their knees?

Sacraments are "outward signs instituted by Christ to give grace." Thus the outward signs, being instituted by Christ, can't be changed.

Here's the really interesting part: in two of the sacraments --- Matrimony and Holy Orders ---- the human body itself is the outward sign. That is, in Matrimony, the female body and the male body have sacramental significance.

In Holy Orders (priesthood) the male body is itself a sign. A sign of what? Modern ears are almost tone-deaf to the natural significance of gender, but here we go: maleness means PROTECTION, PROVISION, and SELF-SACRIFICE: being there to lay down your life for your flock, your people, your family.

It is an enduring sign-post in a de-sexed and de-sacramentalized world for what the male role is ~supposed~ to be.

I thank God for a Church that acts as if that bodily sex is significant and holy; that insists that masculinity and femininity mean something ("male and female he created them") and that matter matters.


124 posted on 04/13/2005 10:11:43 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ((Oh give me a phone/ To th Vatican, Rome; /Where the Bishops and Cardinals pray...")
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