I'm leaning in that direction also.
We need some more like Gloria Farley working on this.
Posted on 05/24/2005 9:45:19 PM PDT by FreeManWhoCan
Thanks I will check them out.
I've posted some comments elsewhere. I'll just say here that I'd WANT the stone to be real. Heck, I WANT that "Scottish discovery" of America in 1400 to be real. Or the claim that Coluumbus was Jewish (as one recent book "proved") or that Columbus was an illegitimate son of a Portuguese prince (as another recent book "proved"). Produce ONE reputable historian (NOT an "engineer" or a "geologist") to endorse the book's thesis, a person who doesn't stand to profit from the "authentication" of the stone via a book deal.
When I first saw the stone, about 15 yrs ago, I had no opinion until I carefully read the text and looked closely at the runes. When I saw the Latin script abbreviation "AVM", more precisely "AV:M", I was convinced. I realized the author had had some Roman Catholic Clerical exposure. Ohman, a devout, Swede Lutheran, would not likely have known of this.
My father was the product of a German Catholic and Swede Lutheran marital union. From my own experience, Swede Lutherans do not venerate Christ's Mother with nearly the fervor the Catholics do.
I reasoned that "Ave Virgo Maria" or "Ave Maria" coming from his chisel would be about as likely as Rap Artist composing 'Celeste Aida.' There is just too much social distance. It could happen, but naaah!
Templars or no, I am not surprised that the little Bruno Maglie-like details are adding to the weight of evidence.
I was wondering what they may have been doing that far west, ---
It's very easy to explain if you look at a globe and imagine Greenlanders trying to go south along the coast of America.
-- The most direct southerly route from Greenland is into Hudsons Bay and up the main north flowing river, -- the main branch of which ends up being the Red River of Minnesota, where the runestone was discovered.
Sir:
What a hundred Historians say will not alter a concrete scientific fact. But a fact will alter what a hundred Historians say, honest ones anyway.
Facts aren't what we want them to be. They are what they are.
A lot of Anthropologists endorsed Piltdown Man. They did not stand to profit from their endorsement. That didn't make Piltdown Man authentic.
Wolter, in my firsthand opinion, is an honorable man. Please do not attack his findings in an ad-hominem fashion.
My opinion has been tipped in a direction of "genuine". I'm not yet betting the farm yet, though.
The Stone is 36"x18"x6", and of granite-like material. It could have come by train, wagon, travois or boat. It's not native to the Kensington area and came from a considerable distance. It would have been a lot of trouble to to transport by wagon or travois. Train would have been expensive for a joke. In 1898, there was no navigable lake.
Thus the enterprising immigrant would have needed time, 14th century runic knowledge, money, strength, a chisel, stone carving skill, patience and a warped sense of humor. Sound like any body you know?
So, they came into Hudson Bay, to the SW shore, up the rivers to Lake Winnipeg, then South, against the current all the way UP the Red River, all the way to the SD / ND border and were moving EAST or South or SE..
Actually, if they made it all the way to the headwaters, they actually came almost straight East from there, to where they buried the Kensington stone..
Which on foot, would probably be about 10 days journey..
If the travel was done during the spring, they may have been able to take some advantage of the massive flood plain to travel..
Spring flooding would also explain their description of burying their marker on an island
That part of Minnesota is fairly flat, and dotted with many lakes.. not quite as much as farther north and east, but still well covered..
Sunken Civ's post in #31 notes that 8 returned, in 1364, to Sweden..
Considering those 8 survived and returned, one would expect that colonization of some sort would have occurred...
Reports of a land that vast and rich would have driven people crazy with desire..
There should have been veritable flotillas of Swedish and Norwegian ships headed to America (Vinland)..
Yet, this didn't happen...
Just more conjecture, more questions..
You have me interested. Is there a specific title by Samuel Eliot Morrison you recommend?
Any Viking (BTW--by 1362 the term was something of a misnomer) sent to explore Greenland and points west would have known that his safe trip home had to be by ocean-going boat, and had to be east. If one is to believe the Kensington story, the self-same Vikings abandoned their ocean going boats and hiked/canoed hundreds/thousands of miles inland, west, for no discernable reason, ending up in central MN where they had nothing better to do than chip out a message on a hard granite rock.
I'm leaning in that direction also.
We need some more like Gloria Farley working on this.
The journey would have been through Hudson Bay, so the ocean going boats would not have been parked on the east coast. The journey up (South) the Red River from Lake Manitoba would not have as tough as you think either.
In Spring, the Chinook winds dominate. They come from the NW. Thus a boat travelling generally South would have been on a broad or beam reach, a favorable point of sail for such a trip.
A place has been found to the North that resembles the two skerries (islands) described in the text. Norse anchor holes were also found there, which would not have been done by an Indian. Other artifacts have also been found.
The boats they had were somewhat like the boats Lewis and Clark used. They would likely have been lighter and drawn less. There would have been a mast, a square sail and oars. Where Lewis and Clark would have traveled upstream and generally against the wind, the Norsemen would have had a quartering wind, like the Dhows on the Nile.
I urge you to read a bit more and think about it. The facts seem plausible to me. They suggest to me that you may be pooh-poohing the efforts of brave men.
BTW, I have inherited a trove of Civil War books from a Brother in Law. I'd be happy to talk more about that subject. Also, thank you for disagreeing with me in a civil manner. No civil war here.
I don't know anything about the Freemasons. I only added my two cents to this thread because I am familiar with the history of the French monarchy during the middle-ages.
You correctly point out that it was not impossible for Vikings to have made it to MN. My point was rather that they had no motivation to do so, and every motivation to go in the opposite direction. Being unlikely, the burden of proof is on those trying to prove they WERE there, rather than on those trying to prove they WEREN'T. I don't think one stone, of "challenged" (to say the least) origin and authenticity, is enough proof.
I didn't say it was a yarn...you did. I am a co-author of a book on military history which includes the documentation of a dig and the artifacts we recovered from a fort...all are in the local museum. I don't believe in the Templar stuff and I am not interested in reading that new book. I am not an expert in Scandinavian history but my ancestors at one time ruled and at other times were siblings or in laws of the rulers of Norway, Sweden and Denmark but I know nothing of the rune stones. I know enough to see that we are learning more about our history every day and I am delighted that we still have alot to learn. I am have been a local historian for 25 years and I have been fortunate enough to work with two archaeologists and an anthropologist in the field for four summers.
My understanding is that many of the templars made their way to Scotland where they were given refuge by Robert The Bruce. Who by the way, was the traitor of Wallace in the movie Braveheart.
Ancient Site in Newfoundland Offers Clues to Vikings in America
Source: New York Times
Author: JOHN NOBLE WILFORD
Posted on 03/15/2001 11:34:06 PST by advocate10
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3ab1192e66d2.htm
"Considering those 8 survived and returned, one would expect that colonization of some sort would have occurred... Reports of a land that vast and rich would have driven people crazy with desire.."
Considering the message of despair they left for us on the Kensington runestone, that doesn't seem in any way likely. Another problem that arose was the cooling off -- the Little Ice Age -- which led to the abandonment of the Greenland colonies.
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