Posted on 07/01/2005 9:55:00 AM PDT by Rhadaghast
May 11, 2005 Host: Vic Eliason Topic: False Doctrine Guest: David DiCanio Description: Dr. David DiCanio is Pastor of Columbine Free Presbyterian Church in Columbine, Colorado, and is involved in Christian Media, which produces television-style documentaries on religious trends and movements. Vic Eliason presents two audio cuts. One features Robert Schuller being interviewed by Dr. David DiCanio after giving a keynote address at the 2004 National Association of Evangelicals meeting. The other cut features Robert Schuller interviewing Billy Graham. The two discuss their views concerning how people are saved.
Dr. DiCanio interacts with callers to discuss the opinions expressed by Schuller and Graham and the current move of some leaders in Christianity to preach a gospel that teaches salvation apart from a conscious, biblical awareness of Christ as the only way to God.
Contact Info: info@thechristianmedia.com www.thechristianmedia.com
Rare recordings of great preachers of the past are posted by Dr. DiCanio's church at
http://www.sermonaudio.com/columbine Listen: RealAudio Windows Media
The key exchange, IMO:
Robert Schuler speaking to Graham: What I hear you saying is that it's possible for Jesus Christ to come into a human heart and soul and life even if they have been born in darkness and have never had exposure to the bible. Is that a correct interpretation of what you are saying?That's pretty much classic Reformation theology, dealing with God's sovereignty and calling. Better still, it's consistent with Christ's comment that "no one can come to me unless the Father draws him." Even a non-Calvinist like Charles Wesley proclaimed this in the great hymn, "And Can It Be" --Billy Graham: Yes it is. Because I believe that.
"Long my imprisoned spirit lay, fast bound in sin and nature's night; Thine eye defused a quickening ray, I woke, the dungeon flamed with light. My chains fell off, my heart was free. I rose, went forth, and followed Thee..."
The point being, before a person can come to a saving knowledge of Christ, there is required a drawing act of grace on God's part. I think this is what Graham is saying here, if a bit awkwardly.
See post 237.
This is not true. We were *dead* in our trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1 and 5). Dead people do not desire anything. It is instead *by grace* that you are saved, as a response to One seeking you.
Here's Ephesians 2:1-9:
And you he made alive, when you were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience. Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of body and mind, and so we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God-- not because of works, lest any man should boast.
This is very weak. What he should have said was that folks who have never heard about the Lord Jesus Christ and the Bible, can still be called of God and have saving faith; putting their faith upon God to save them from their sins.
However, in this world where radio and the Internet is global, I'm not sure there are too many who haven't heard His name or haven't heard some scripture. So I don't think they were talking about a lot of people out of the world. Rather, many have heard, but rejected the Gospel, it is more the cynic and the debater we encounter these days.
If our message is simply "here's the name of the guy that has already saved you" then it certainly isn't worth risking life and limb for.
The law is written in our hearts. We will therefore have no excuse on judgement day if our names are not written in the Lamb's book of Life.
Know or don't know. There is no believe < /yoda >
Right, and it refers to people who are all B.C.
I was in a rush when I posted my reply in #98, but I should have clarified I disagree with Mulch because I believe *only* Jesus Christ Himself can say with certainty who is to go to hell and who isn't.
And we know no one on this thread is Jesus Christ.
Slap you, I will.... ;-)
I, however, am Spartacus.
"Q: How does man become reunited with God(Heaven)?
A1: Judaism/Islam/Buddhism/Hinduism/New Ageism/etc: Earned."
is simplistic and not theologically sound by the tenants of their beliefs.
"Works" by themselves will not take you to God but ABSOLUTE faith in God can lead you to God and if you acknowledge God as the center and power in your life then that change in you should be reflected in your "works"; otherwise faith and seeking have not brought you to God, you're just going through the motions and the ritual and mouthing words of belief that you do not live. That "living" is not, as you would say a way to "earn" something with God; it is a reflection of living your faith in God.
Is what I believe many Jews and many Bhuddists would tell you, concerning their beliefs.
I am so provoked to thankfulness when I read the truth of our faith as expressed through Reformation theology. It's so awesome to consider God's great love in light of my little love.
It's true that some may go too far into "hyper-Calvinism." But it is safe to stay near the Cross, fixing our eyes on Christ and not falling into the gutters of legalism and licenciousness....
I love Chesterton. I know Pascal spoke of that "God-shaped void." Did Chesterton add to that?
Graham has preached salvation by the blood without compromised since he entered public life half-a-century ago.
But, hey, somebody digs up a clip and puts it out there without context, why you'll have your faction that will accept it uncritically.
I'm with you. My faith, and my perception of God, expanded beyond measure when I started to catch a glimpse of God's sovereignty and grace. All of Him...none of me, other than to receive with faith.
If God, in His mercy, began through the Holy Spirit to make me aware that my pagan gods, or Buddha, or whatever my people believed in was hollow, and that there was, indeed One greater in Whom I ought place my faith, then I should expect that, if I were obedient to the Holy Spirit's guidance, upon my death I would see Christ and immediately recognize that He was the One in whom I had believed, though I knew not his Name until that moment, only that He existed. This is the very essence of faith; that we know nearly nothing of our savior, but because of what has been revealed and our recognition that it is from God, we place faith in the little that we know and follow in obedience.
If you are lost in the Yukon wilderness and I show up and tell you, "Follow me and I will show you the way out," is it necessary that you know my name in order for you to receive the salvation I offer? No, it is not. You merely must have faith that I truly do know the way and that, if you follow me, you will be saved; you simply place faith in my declared role. In the same way, savlation in Christ is contingent upon our knowing His Name only because His Name is synonymous with His declared role: Christ, Messiah, Saviour. This is as simple as our believing that declared role, and our ensuing act of faith in committing to follow the One who has that role; Whom the Holy Spirit has revealed to us.
Since God has been faithful to reveal Himself to men through His creation (Romans 1), if a man responds in faith to that revelation of God, how would God not also be faithful to save that man? But where man has failed so often is in ascribing the awareness he is receiving through the creation to something other than God, himself. To Buddha, perhaps, or some nebulous, New Age 'great cosmic all' concept. But, if a man responds to the revelation of Gos that is apparent in creation, believes that God exists and earnestly seeks Him, that man will surely be rewarded by God (cf. Hebrews 11:6), and that reward will NOT be a one-way ticket to Hell.
Your right that their are differences between those religions as to what constitutes "earned". I was making it "simplistic" for the sake of brevity.
It doesn't matter even if Billy Graham tattoed pentagrams all over his chest, dressed in a fire engine red long john drawers with pitch fork and danced like a whirling dervish performing the MoonWalk, the real issue is salvation by faith in God through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
If Billy is right or wrong, that is an issue between him and God. God has already provided more than ample teaching on how to have a righteous relationship with Him.
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