Posted on 07/08/2005 6:06:03 PM PDT by wagglebee
What about the women who are raped, and the children victims of incest?
Do you believe in blaming -- and killing-- the victims of rape/incest? Neither do I. Therefore I can't justify killing the woman (as, I understand, often happens under Shari'a law) and I can't justify killing the baby, either.
The baby, like his mother, is a victim, too, who paradoxically has the gift of life but also has been victimized by being brought into existence in a shameful and degrading way, untimely, unprepared-for and unsupported.
Having a baby in your womb as a result of a felony is like having an innocent hostage brought into you house by a terrorist. Even after you get rid of the terrorist, you find the hostage is still there. May you get a knife and slit his throat?? No. May you evict him if he's in such medical condition as immediate eviction would cause his death? No. Basically, you'd be obliged to treat the hostage humanely until the EMT's can come and take him to the ER.
Even if that works as an analogy, we need to take some time thinking about the real-life situations. So I want to add this:
In real life, only about 1% of abortions are performed for rape. There are two main reasons for this: (1) surprisingly, a majority of sexual assaults do not involve a normal, completed act of intercourse with ejaculation of semen into the vagina. (2) rape causes rage, fear, or both in the woman; and rage/fear trigger a flood of adrenaline, which --- if she was nearing her fertile time --- will block ovulation.
Nevertheless, if you're one of that unlucky 1%, pregnancy looks 100% wretched, and could certainly feel like an extension of the bodily invasion of rape. I have a close friend who performed a number of abortions at Bronx Pediatric Hospital in the 1970's as part of a medical research project. She did follow-up witht her patients (all under-age--- hence, "pediatric" -- and all the victims of at east statutory rape or incest) to document the "therapeutic" value of the abortions.
What she found deeply disturbed her. The hoped-for therapeutic effects weren't there. What she found was that the girls tended to identify with the rejected baby:
But underage pregnant girls who go on to give birth are much more likely to be removed into a protective environment (group home, etc.) and to receive health care and counseling during 9 months of pregnancy and beyond, which results in better psychological outcomes for the girls.
What I want to suggest here is that abortion is no boon for girls and women who have suffered rape or incest. It is not therapeutic. It is one more destructive, ugly experience. It is not part of the solution. It becomes part of the problem.
did you read #62?
I think you shot off your mouth before reading the thread. See #62.
Aside from that, you bring some fascinating insight to the discussion. I doubt many of these girls speak of the "evacuation" of the product of conception" (POC).
I'd like to add to that this quote from Michael Bauman:
We hide the fetal holocaust that surrounds us every day just as effectively as the Nazis hid their extermination of the Jews. And we do it the same way. We cannot bring ourselves to utter the "M" word, though we commit the "M" act. That is, we do not murder unborn children, we "abort fetusus"... Some of the more squeamish among us are unable even to say the "A" word. Though by aborting fetuses rather than murdering babies our linguistic sleight of hand has hidden the real nature of our action (murder) and the real identity of our victim (baby), some people require a still heavier dose of verbal opium. We must tell them they are merely "terminating a pregnancy," which eliminates overt reference to any living thing. . . . If "terminating pregnancies" is still to overt a verbal description because the word pregnant tends to evoke unfortunate images of happy women large with child, we can hide the crime behind an even more impersonal wall of words. We can say that the murdering of unborn children is nothing more than the voluntary extraction of the "product of conception", or, as nearly all abortion clinics have it, "removing the POC." What could be more innocent.
(Bauman, Michael. "The Euphemisms of Abortion Hide the Crime," Orange County Register 9 January 1989, reprinted in Francis J. Beckwith, Politically Correct Death: Answering the Arguments for Abortion Rights (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1993), p181.)
I stand by #62.
You understand the knee-jerk reaction people will have reading #29 on its own (without #62). The rape-incest argument is pretty standard diversionary fare with the pro-aborts. Your point, otoh, was merely that the mother did not "invite" pregnancy in these cases. Your point was not (as is usually the case when rape is brough up) that THEREFORE the baby must die.
Sorta like saying "I'm personally against abortion but think each woman should make her own choice,"
Thank you so much...it is nice to be understood!
Rush has always been sarcastic, and he has always been anti-abortion.
Nor can we kill ourselves. How can we terminate a child in the womb constitutionally, but not be allowed to terminate our own life? One is abortion, the other is suicide. One is constitutionally acceptable, the other is illegal?????
You got that right!
The interpretation is correct. Were Roe vs. Wade overturned tomorrow nothing would change. Prior to Roe abortions were a state/municipal decision. Roe federalized something the Constitution doesn't refer too. Do you for a minute think the kooks in California or New York would vote to close abortion mills were Roe overturned?
Without Roe some areas would permit abortions some communities might not.
Precisely! And Rush's response is so concise (nuff said) and unassailable, it will likely be spun by any wanting to continue the court granted right to kill innocent helpless other human beings in the womb. [It can only be supported with lies and demonically inspired twists of reasoning. Says a lot about whom such killers serve, don'tchaknow!]
That would be mean...they wouldn't have a chance against him.
"I'm glad I'm on your ping list. FRegards"
THANKS! I'm glad you are too!
"Sticks and Stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me!"
Back in the 1960's before Planned Parenthood realized that using scientific truths in its literature would lessen its revenue, it was halfway honest.
A 1963 Planned Parenthood brochure actually says "An abortion kills the life of a baby after it has begun." That's something we pro-lifers didn't start saying en mass until years later!
A book from 1969 reviewed below states: '... at least one [sperm] will reach the egg, fertilize it, and conception will take place. A new life will begin.'
Eventually Planned Barrenhood saw that for their industry of death to maximize profits,
truth would not be their "best policy".
"Sticks and Stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me!"
While the words won't, the deceitful manipulation and misapplication
of words in law has been the greatest cause of death in history.
Pro-Choice Advocates Agree that Abortion Kills Humans.
Many abortion advocates have agreed that abortion kills human life: A 1963 Planned Parenthood brochure says that life begins at conception: "An abortion kills the life of a baby after it has begun."{01} Former Planned Parenthood President Faye Wattleton admits that the preborn are alive in her 1986 book:
"There are many sperm cells in the [seminal] fluid. If one of them meets an egg cell inside the mother, new life can begin to grow... If one of your friends is pregnant, ask her to let your child 'feel the baby move.' ... A baby grows in a special place inside the mother, called the uterus -- not in her stomach. In nine months it is born."{02}
Similarly, Dr. Mary Calderone, former director of Planned Parenthood has stated that "[a]bortion is the taking of a human life"{03} and Dr. Alan Guttmacher,{04} former president of Planned Parenthood and founder of the Guttmacher Institute, the research affiliate of Planned Parenthood, has stated "[f]ertilization has then taken place; a baby has been conceived."{05} {06} While many abortion defenders readily concede that abortion kills human life, it is necessary to expound on this point because examining the nature of the unborn human being at the point of conception shows the inherent dignity that we all share from our biologic beginnings that are hidden from eyes of the world.
Not only have representatives from the nations largest abortion provider agreed that life begins at conception, but others who support abortion have agreed that abortion is murder. Dr. Magda Denes who performed two years of research in an abortion facility and compiled her results{07} told a Chicago newspaper "There wasn't an (abortion) doctor who at one time or another in the questioning did not say `this is murder.'"{08} Even Kate Michelman, President of N.AR.A.L. seems to be moving in the direction of agreeing that abortion is murder by her statement that "[a]bortion is a bad thing."{09} Others who have at one time been heavily involved with abortion have later agreed, such as "Jane Roe" Norma McCorvey, Dr. Bernard Nathanson, and Carol Everett.
In addition, everyone who uses the term "fetus" unwittingly acknowledges that the unborn human is an unborn child because fetus is Latin for "unborn child." Unfortunately for the unborn child, the term fetus has fallen into use as a way of dehumanizing the unborn child, as shown by the primary use of this term by people when they are arguing for abortion rights, in comparison to when they are discussing a baby that is wanted by the mother.
Planned Parenthood admits: Life begins at conception
IN THE 1960'S, the terminology of medical texts had not yet been changed to dehumanize life in the womb. (The pregnant woman was "the mother" and the fetus was "the child" or "baby.") The legal and political system had not yet corrupted the scientific realities of life before birth.
In 1969 McGraw-Hill Inc. was publishing a book on Conception, Birth and Contraception and needed some input from an authority on the subject. It turned to Planned Parenthood and the Sex Information & Education Council of the United States (SIECUS).
"This book provides a solid base for understanding the anatomy of reproduction," wrote Mary S. Calderone, MD, Executive Director of SIECUS, in her Introduction to the 129-page book. "Access to such fine books as this one will assure our young people that ... finally adults are becoming willing to 'tell it like it is.'"
Similarly, "Dr. George Langmyhr of Planned Parenthood Federation of America ... reviewed the material on contraception," state authors Robert J. Demarest and John J. Sciarra, MD, PhD, in their Foreword.
Within the pages of Conception, Birth and Contraception, however, the pro-life position is presented with pictorial and verbal accuracy. The book clearly pushes contraceptives, with some faulty information on the safety of the IUD, etc., but the personhood of the unborn is fully supported throughout the text.
In fact, the book's own glossary definition of the term "fetus" begins with: "An unborn child." Pregnancy, likewise, is defined as: "The condition of being with child."
In the aftermath of Roe v. Wade, of course, today's Planned Parenthood -- largest abortion provider in the world -- would never admit that life begins at conception, or depict the infant in utero, in full-page illustrations, as a person. To do so, would suggest not only a violation of rights, but even murder, in the diabolical Roe v. Wade decision.
No doubt today's SIECUS, as well, would attempt to discredit the pro-life (factual) content of this "fine book" which it's leader in 1969 described so positively.
Some excerpts
Following are some excerpts from the book, approved by Planned Parenthood and SIECUS four years before the legalization of abortion:
"... at least one [sperm] will reach the egg, fertilize it, and conception will take place. A new life will begin." (page 15)
"... the egg which, if fertilized, gives rise to a new life." (page 3)
"From fertilization to delivery, mother and child are as one for approximately 266 days. At the end of the period the mother delivers the infant into the world ..." (page 3)
"It is the female who carries the baby during the nine months of its prenatal life." (page 17)
"However small it may be, the egg is about two thousand times as large as the sperm that must fertilize it. ...it carries the food the growing embryo will use during the first few days of its life." (page 26)
"... to grow within the mother." (page 32)
"The inherited characteristics of the baby to be born ... are determined by material within the egg and sperm ... each mature egg contains genetic material carrying the inheritable characteristics of the mother ... the child receives inherited characteristics from both parents." (page 50)
"The placenta ... transfers nourishment from the mother ...." (page 53)
"... ectopic pregnanc[ies] ... are dangerous to the mother and provide no possibility of a live child." (page 53)
"The growth of the baby within the uterus takes nine calendar months." (page 57)
"The sex ... could also be determined by examining under a microscope cells which are present in the amniotic fluid ... however, the doctor would have to puncture the amniotic cavity. This procedure is not undertaken except under very unusual circumstances having to do with the baby's health. So until the baby is delivered, no one knows whether it is a boy or a girl." (page 61)
"... the bloodstreams of mother and fetus ... never touch, and the blood in each remains separate. Oxygen and nutrients pass through the placenta, from the bloodstream of the mother to the fetus, and waste products from the fetus pass in the reverse direction into the bloodstream of the mother." (page 64) [i.e., the fetus is not part of the mother's body]
"... a doctor examining the mother can hear the fetal heartbeat ... The mother can feel the movement ... its arms and legs ..." (page 65)
"... the doctor may perform an operation called a cesarean section and remove the baby ..." (page 68)
".. its head is well down in the pelvic area of the mother -- the ideal position for it when the birth process begins." (page 68)
"The new life that has been growing within the mother for approximately nine months is now ready to enter the world. The passage of the baby through the birth canal is called delivery, and the process by which this is accomplished by the mother is called labor... Occasionally, a baby is born before thirty-eight weeks ... and the baby's chance of survival depends upon its weight and state of development at birth. When it is time for delivery, the mother begins to experience uterine contractions.... felt by the mother in her back ..." (page 72)
{01}Plan Your Children (Planned Parenthood, 1963). (The pamphlet also informs the reader that "[abortion] is dangerous to your life and health. it may make you sterile, so that when you want a child you cannot have it ... [in comparison] [b]irth control merely postpones the beginning of life.").
{02}Faye Wattleton, How to Talk with Your Child About Sexuality 95 (1986).
{03}Dr. Mary Calderone, Illegal Abortion as a Public Health Problem, 50 American Journal of Public Health 7, 951 (1960). ("..when a woman seeking abortion is given the chance of talking over her problem with a properly trained and oriented person, she will in the process very often resolve many of her qualms and will spontaneously decide to see her prenancy through... so I am not for abortion...")
{04}Katherine S. O'Keefe, Crypto-Eugenics: The Hidden Agenda of Planned Parenthood Appendix B (1991). Katharine S. O'Keefe, American Eugenics Society 1922-1994 (rev. Dec. 8, 1993, ver. 6.8). Director, American Eugenics Society, 1955; V.P. 1956-63; Director 1964-66 MD; d. Mar. 18, 1974; President, Planned Parenthood Federation of America 1962-1974; Mount Sinai New York 1952-66 (Director of Obstetrics 1952-62; Director Emeritus 1962-); Association for the Study of Abortion; C.m., Lanker Committee 1961; Founder, American Association of Planned Parenthood Physicians 1963; International Planned Parenthood Federation (Management and Planning Committee (196263, 1964); Medical Committee, (1961-62, C.m..., 1964-68); Regional representative, Western Hemisphere (1962-63, 1964); Council 196162; consultant, IPPF medical publications and IPPF newsletter when Dorothy Brush was editor 1952-56; Western Hemisphere Regional Council 1955); in 1968 IPPF was assigned to assist the government of Botswana in developing family planning following visits by A. Guttmacher according to ARTW, Dec. 1968.
{05}Birth Control and Love: The Complete Guide to Contraception and Fertility 12 (1961) quoted in Stephen M. Krason, Abortion: Politics, Morality, and the Constitution : A Critical Study of Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton and a Basis for Change 445 (1984).
{06}Planning Your Family 16 (1964).
{07}In Necessity and Sorrow: Life and Death in an Abortion Hospital (1976).
{08}Daily News, Oct. 22, 1976.
{09}Philadelphia Enquirer, Dec. 11, 1993.
Internet Sources for this article:
Planned Parenthood, SIECUS admit Life begins at conception (by Diane Dew) http://dianedew.com/conceptn.htm
The Public Policy of Casey v. Planned Parenthood By Michael G. Smith Chapter 3 The Casey Court and the Reliance on Murder http://www.leaderu.com/humanities/casey/ch3.html#S4
and the child is your son or daughter, even though it is also someone else's. A person who leaves someone because they find out that he is a monster and just went to prison because he killed someone doesn't therefore kill their children. Because the father is not a good person it does not reflect on the child, which is also the mother's offspring and belongs to God first. Great good can come out from wrong when we do what is right. It is good for the mom to let her child live, even if she gives it up for adoption.
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