Posted on 09/10/2005 4:46:12 AM PDT by Colonel Kangaroo
[mac] "When you're cornered or getting you butt whipped in a debate, you hunker down and post the Tenth amendment Virginia Ratification document over and over emphasizing different parts of it, or you disappear in the ether for a few days until the conversation has moved on, then make these type of pathetic responses."
Is that better Professore?
No, what you said was "Sorry, this got lost in all the trash from Non & Mac."
Blaming other people for YOUR own inability to respond, what a conservative position. Maybe you should become the next. Mayor of New Orleans[/sarcasm].
When were these "alleged" crimes noted by Congress and prosecuted? Congress was fully aware of ALL such incidents, and REFUSED to take action against the seceding states.
The Confederacy was a criminal operation from its inception until it's last feeble breath.
The states seceded via conventions, the governments being republican (representative) in form. For their action to be criminal, their must be laws against republican governmant - and of course, the Constitution required the states to possess republican forms of government.
Which helps explain why you neo-secessionists worship it so completely and rely on it so thoroughly, while ignoring most of the rest of the document.
Ignore WHAT?????? What most of us are waiting for, is for you to post a power DELEGATED to the federal government to prevent secession. The 10th, whether you like it or not, is part of the Constitution.
...and yet YOU seem to have plenty of time to reread posts I've made to other members, translate the phrases, and post the translations back up for your fellow cultists, like a good little Ruffiano huh?
It only takes a moment to read your rants, and a few more to look up translations. [Ruffiano m. (vulgar) bootlicker, servile person] - another indicator of your intelligence and manners.
Well I certainly wouldn't question the Christian Identity of anyone who would use Holy Scripture to justify holding another man in bondage, so I won't question yours.
Wow - a simple quote from the Bible - and you accuse me of being racist?????? I've stated here that according to MY religion - Christianity - we all all of one blood, descendants of Adam and Eve - all brothers and sisters in the eyes of God and myself. Would you also paint George Washington as racist for quoting the Bible? What about this passage,
I believe we shall rise to the challenge. I believe that communism is another sad, bizarre chapter in human history whose last pages even now are being written. I believe this because the source of our strength in the quest for human freedom is not material, but spiritual. And because it knows no limitation, it must terrify and ultimately triumph over those who would enslave their fellow man. For in the words of Isaiah: "He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might He increased strength . . . But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary . . . "Is the author of that quote a racist? A member of the Christain Identity? The speaker was President Ronald W. Reagan in a speech under date of 8 Mar 1983 - his 'Evil Empire' speech. You're a lunatic, attempting to pass off YOUR beliefs as mine.
It's rompicoglioni ['pain in the a**'].
Just another case where you refuse to abide by the rules of the forum: 'Please enjoy our forum, but also please remember to use common courtesy when posting and refrain from posting personal attacks, profanity, vulgarity, threats, racial or religious bigotry, or any other materials offensive or otherwise inappropriate for a conservative family audience.'
[Gianni] Are you just saying.. that the number of battles in which Grant engaged Lee constituting 50,000 dead federals was too many? Were there simply too many occurrances of Grant retiring to his tent and sobbing uncontrollably to pick one out?
Hey stugots, I specifically asked you about a series of engagements commonly known as the Seven Days battles. Are you pretending the question "got lost" again, or are you really a fessacchione ?
Oh, I see. You believe no crimes were committed because...Congress refused to act [lol].
Crimes were committed against Federal installations and American citizens throughout the South, up to and including the attack on Ft. Sumner. BTW Congress did act after the Lincoln administration lit a fire under them. If the previous Federal government had lived up to its Constitutional responsibility many lives would have been saved (imo).
The states seceded via conventions, the governments being republican (representative) in form.
While Secession may have been Constitutional in theory, as carried out by the Confederates in 1860 it was illegal and treasonous.
What most of us are waiting for, is for you to post a power DELEGATED to the federal government to prevent secession
Secession in 1860 violated the USC in numerous ways. It was a violation of judicial power [Art III section 2], it was treasonous [Art III section 3], it was fraudulent [Art IV section 2], and downright criminal [Art III section 3].
Wow - a simple quote from the Bible - and you accuse me of being racist??????
Did I? I hadn't noticed. I thought I was simply pointing out how Holy Scripture has been used to support all kinds of behaviors, not just to condemn the "potty mouths". However, if you wish to wear your Christian Identity on your sleeve, so be it.
at the time of the signing of the Declaration of Independence, GEN Washington, Patrick Henry, Ben Franklin & all the other PATRIOTS were ENGLISH citizens!
your position is as SILLY as suggesting that the USA shouldn't have had allies in WW1 & WW2.
btw, had lincoln, the tyrant, NOT CHOSEN to make war on the new dixie republic there would have been NO NEED for allies or for a WAR that killed about a MILLION PEOPLE.
face it, CK, lincoln & his coven of thugs were the AGGRESSORS.
free dixie,sw
Mac:
Don't you think you could keep this debate CIVIL.
I don't see Gianni calling you names etc.
Just a suggestion.
I wonder if they have any respect whatsoever. I honour all that served from either side*. There were many honourable men on both sides worthy of respect. Despite conducting war, with all the attendant horrors of such, these men refused to stoop to the depravities exhibited by others, conducted themselves as gentlemen, and treated their adversaries with due respect, as evidenced by their behaviour and correspondence.
*Excepting war criminals, those that waged war on innocent civilians, those that looted and pillaged, indulged in rape and murder, gave orders to do so, or condoned such actions.
the former Chair of History at Tuskegee University said that in 1860 there was no more than TEN THOUSAND people in the whole country, who cared enough about "the plight of the slaves to fight one skirmish over slavery, much less a WAR".
the notion that slavery was THE cause or even a MAJOR cause is the most STUPID & UNTENABLE position advanced by the REVISIONIST LEFTISTS, out of northeastern academia. NOT even most of the people who advance that premise BELIEVE IT. they simply hope that OTHERS are DUMB enough to do so.
to quote Arnold Toynbee,late dean of Oxford University, "History is FICTION, popularly agreed upon by tyrants & conquerers".
free dixie,sw
free dixie,sw
free dixie,sw
Then you missed it. Gianni's attacks are usually rabbit punches. Gotta run to the welfare office now, but I appreciate the suggestion.
No. I point out that Congress itself saw no illegal act, they refused to act because secession was legal.
If the previous Federal government had lived up to its Constitutional responsibility many lives would have been saved (imo).
Please document thsi alleged Constitutional responsibility to preserve the union.
While Secession may have been Constitutional in theory, as carried out by the Confederates in 1860 it was illegal and treasonous.
The governments in question were republican as required. Conventions were assembled, a vote was taken. The sovereign power of each state - a power higher than the legislature and Constitution - met, and voted to change their form of government. There is nothing illegal or treasonous about it. The Confederates publicy renounced their former allegiance to the federal republic, met in convention to creat a new one. They did not wage war on the federal government nor attempt to overthrow it - they exercised their God given right to self-government.
Secession in 1860 violated the USC in numerous ways. It was a violation of judicial power [Art III section 2] ...
Article III §2 The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority; to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls; to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction; to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party; to Controversies between two or more States; between a State and Citizens of another State; between Citizens of different States; between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects. [Later modified by Amendment XI]Specifically what clause was violated?In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.
The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed.
... it was fraudulent [Art IV section 2]...
Article IV §2 The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.Specifically what clause was violated?A Person charged in any State with Treason, Felony, or other Crime, who shall flee from Justice, and be found in another State, shall on demand of the executive Authority of the State from which he fled, be delivered up, to be removed to the State having Jurisdiction of the Crime.
No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, But shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.
...and downright criminal [Art III section 3].
Article III §3 Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.Only citizens could be charged with treason - non citizens cannot. Citizens receive protection from their government - not attacked by it! The states absolved their allegiance to the federal republic. Not longer citizens, and only defending themselves from attack, they were not traitors, just as George Washington was not a traitor and stated 'they who had committed no fault wanted no pardon.'The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.
However, if you wish to wear your Christian Identity on your sleeve, so be it.
When YOU can't win a debate this is your retort, to accuse someone of racism, of being a vile and despicible? You post like you're a member of the Taliban.
Really, Watie, you must try harder. First off, the quote is "History is a lie agreed upon." and it was Napoleon who said it. Second, Toynbee was never a dean at Oxford. He taught there briefly, after his graduation in 1912 and until WW1, but after the war he was at the University of London, the London School of Economics, and, primarily, Director of the Royal Institute of International Affairs.
As for your Tuskegee History Chair quote, I'll just point out that you cite this one all the time, but it always seems to change. Where's the "they should have, but they didn't" part? And the "skirmish" bit is new.
Now then, as for the slavery not being a major cause, I simply point to the secession declarations of the states. They cite slavery over and over.
Worth repeating. Brigadier-General Lyon then turning to the governor said 'This means war.' Strange. Nowhere in the Constitution do I find a clause stating that refusing to provide troops is a declaration of war, or that war can be used against a state remaining in the union.
Anyone holding that the murder of every man, woman and child in a state to be justified is insane.
Previously posted by Nolu Chan:
So, what kind of pervert arrests a 10-year old girl and puts her in a ball-and-chain???SOURCE: Portals to Hell, Lonnie R. Speer, 1997, pp. 155-58
In a frustrated effort to curb guerrilla activity in western Missouri and eastern Kansas, Brigadier General Thomas Ewing, Jr., commanding the District of the Border, issued the now-infamous General Order No. 11 on August 25, 1863: "First: All persons living in Cass, Jackson, and Bates Counties, Missouri, and in that part of Vernon County, included in this district, are hereby ordered to move from their present places of residence within 15 days from [now]. Those who within that time establish their loyalty to the satisfaction of the commanding officer... will receive from him certificates stating that facts of their loyalty and the names by whom it can be shown."
In effect, the order demanded that all inhabitants of the Missouri counties that bordered Kansas pack up and get out if they were in anyway related to any member of William C. Quantrill's band or any other Southern-sympathizing band roaming the area, or if they had at any time aided any member in any way, such as providing them shelter, horses, or food.
The intent of the decree was to eventually transfer known relatives and Southern sympathizers in this part of Missouri to the Confederate state of Arkansas in the hope that the guerrillas and bushwhackers would follow.
The order continued: "Second: all grain or hay in the fields or under shelter in the district from which the inhabitants are required to move... will be taken to [local military] stations and turned over to the proper officers there.... All grain and hay found in such district after the ninth day of September next, not moved... will be destroyed."
Ewing's demand was backed by President Lincoln. Under threat of execution, hundreds of families abandoned their property and fled south. After September 9, Ewing's troops rode across the countryside, destroying all that was abandoned and ordered those who lingered to leave. "I have the honor to report," boasted Ewing, "orders of banishment against sixty-four persons, many of them heads of families, living in Kansas City and its vicinity and Independence and its vicinity.... A large number have been placed upon a suspected list and orders will be given the detective force to keep them under close surveillance until additional evidence is obtained."
"Tell them to prepare their clothing and baggage for a journey southward," declared one Union officer. "They shall be sent to the people and region they hurrah for."
Up to this point, Union soldiers had been scouring the countryside and taking women into custody from the farms and towns in Bates, Cass, Jackson, and Lafayette counties, charging them with such crimes as sheltering guerrillas or buying percussion caps or men's clothing with stolen money. The women were taken to Kansas City, Missouri, and confined to rooms in the Union Hotel with military guards stationed outside their doors.
On July 29, nearly a month before the official order was ever issued, the Kansas City Daily Journal reported that guards had arrived in the city on July 28 with seven females "of the bushwhacking persuasion" to be held until they could be sent out of the country. "The squad which brought them in," the article continued, "was fired upon from the bush."
As the hotel rooms set aside for these prisoners became more and more crowded, General Ewing left for St. Louis to confer with military authorities there. When he returned on August 9, permission was granted for General Order No. 11.
Within days, the Order was officially issued. "They were banished and robbed by the same order," exclaimed John McCorkle, who rode in Quantrill s band. "Their horses, mules and cattle had already been stolen and taken to Kansas, along with their buggies, carriages and wagons.... They did not have very much left to move." The mass exodus from the region continued as Union troops swept over the land, burning houses, barns, outbuildings, and crops. The destruction was so complete that years after the war the area continued to be known as the "burnt district."
In Kansas City, however, the Union Hotel had become overcrowded before the order was ever issued. So eleven female prisoners, or "the guerrillas' women," as they were referred to at the time, were moved to a large three-story brick building at 1409 Grand Avenue. These particular prisoners had high-profile names associated with Quantrill's band. Among them were Mary, Josephine, and Jenny Anderson, sisters of Bill Anderson, who would later acquire the nickname "Bloody Bill;" Susan Vandiver and Armenia Gilvey, cousins of Cole Younger; Charity Kerr, sister of John McCorkle; Nannie Harris McCorkle, John's sister-in-law; Mollie Grindstaff, Martha Munday, Susan Munday Womacks, and Lou Munday Gray, whose brothers, husbands, and cousins all rode with Quantrill.
"My [sister and sister-in-law] went to Kansas City in a wagon," declared John McCorkle, "driving a yoke of oxen, with a load of wheat to exchange it for flour, the women having all the buying to do. When they were ready to start home ... [a neighbor] reported to the authorities that these two women were rebels and were buying flour to feed the bushwhackers. They were immediately arrested and placed in jail with some other girls, who had been arrested and sentenced to be banished."
The majority of these women were less than twenty-one years old. The youngest, Jenny Anderson, was ten. Still, even while confined in the building, they were all required to wear an iron ball attached to one leg.
The building was situated along a ravine in what was part of the Metropolitan Block of McGee's Addition, between 14th and 15th streets, in the heart of the middle-class neighborhood where most of the city's German population lived. The building had been built by E. M. "Milton" McGee, a wealthy influential political leader in the city, but it was owned by Mrs. George C. Bingham.
When originally built in 1857, the building appeared strong and stable, but its foundation was poorly constructed. By the time the Civil War broke out, its floors had begun to sag and had to be reinforced with wooden supports. Very little maintenance or upkeep had been done since.
The first story of the building contained a grocer and liquor shop. The third story was vacant. The "guerrillas' women" were confined in somewhat dilapidated, unkempt, rooms on the second floor. The women were guarded by sentries assigned from Ewing's Kansas troops.
Sometime between August 10 and 13, Joshua Thorne, the Kansas City post surgeon, supposedly inspected the prison and advised General Ewing that the structure was unsafe and the women should be moved as soon as possible. Nothing was done.
On the afternoon of August 13, some of the women incarcerated on the second floor became alarmed when the building began to creak and groan. When the south portion of the structure seemed to settle, plaster cracked and fell from the ceiling and walls in several places. The women became more alarmed when they heard people on the floor below frantically running around in the store and saw the grocer moving his stock out into the street.
As a guard accompanied Nannie Harris McCorkle and Mary Anderson out into the hall to get a pail of water, he noticed the building sway. Immediately, as the women in another room began screaming about the roof, the guard grabbed both women and raced down the stairway. At the same time, ten-year-old Jenny Anderson, in another room, tried to climb out a nearby window, but found it impossible with a 12-pound ball chained to her ankle. Suddenly, the building collapsed.
Scared off at first by the sudden rumble, passersby began to return and gather around the site. There they saw crushed and mangled bodies in the rubble. Groans and screams of pain were heard. Someone in the ruins cried out for help in moving the bricks off her head. After a while, her cries became faint and stopped.
As the initial shock of the catastrophe faded, members of the gathering crowd began trying to help. They jerked on, pulled at, and finally moved the heavy debris from the immense pile of rubble, locating the victims one by one.
Susan Vandiver, Armenia Gilvey, Charity Kerr, and thirteen-year-old Josephine Anderson were found dead. Martha Munday was hurt badly and later died. Sixteen-year-old Mary Anderson was severely injured and would remain crippled for the rest of her life. Nan Harris McCorkle was injured but not seriously, as was the guard who carried her and Mary down the stairs as the building came tumbling down. Jenny Anderson was pulled out of the rubble with two broken legs, the ball and chain still attached to one. Susan Munday Womacks, Lou Munday Gray, and Mollie Grindstaffwere also hurt, but would survive.
What you deliberately choose to totally ignore is the fact large numbers of loyal American citizens residing in Southern states choose to remain loyal, and fought the brand of treason you so cherish to this day, in Missouri & everywhere full scale sedition was being hatched.
The deceptive goal of somehow reversing the clock back to the pre-1960 South will always fail. Stick that feather in your war bonnet as a reminder the 'Lost Cause' is forever gone. This nation has enough problems - clean up your act.
Careful, History ain't over yet.
Very few phrases make me laugh out loud, but you've hit my funny bone with that one.
4CJ, ping for appreciation.
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