Tension Over Intelligent Design

International Herald Tribune ^ | 10/31/2005 | Joseph Rosenbloom

[Diamond]

BOSTON Michael Behe is a respected professor of biochemistry noted for his research into the structure of nucleic acid. He is also the author of "Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution," a book, published in 1996, that put him squarely on the map in favor of an anti-evolution concept known as intelligent design, causing deep tensions between Behe and his fellow faculty members at Lehigh University in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. Two months ago Lehigh's Department of Biological Sciences, where the 53-year-old Behe has taught for 20 years, publicly repudiated his views in a notice on its Web site, saying that they had "no basis in science."

Read more at International Herald Tribune

[betty boop]

A preview of this thread, perhaps?:^)

LOL Diamond! Sure looks like it's shaping up that way! :^)

[Right Wing Professor]

Wait a minute. I thought that ID'rs were all Wild-EyedTM Fundamentalist Christian, Creationist, Bible-thumping ignoramuses. Which is it?

Doesn't mean they can't make common cause with other wackos; Islamists, postmodernists, creationists, astrologers, and perjurers (as half the Dover School Board seems to be). A straight flush of wackiness.

[Diamond]

However, there is a confluence here between the interests and goals of Muslims and ID/Creationists: They both share the same Fear and Loathing of Western Society and its Institutions and fervently wish to destroy it.

The Founding Fathers of this Country and their intellectual and spiritual predecessors were Creationists. I guess you mean that they, too, intended to destroy western civilization and their own Judeo-Christian institutions?

Cordially,

[Diamond]

Uh, Diamond, you were the one who posted the Rosenbloom article.

Since when does posting an article necessitate agreement with it's contents?

Cordially,

[Right Wing Professor]

Since when does posting an article necessitate agreement with it's contents?

Usually disagreement is indicated by a relevant indication in the title. Barf alert, perhaps?

[Diamond]

Barf alert, perhaps?

That would be like throwing the bait into the water with no hook, though:^)

Cordially,

[USConstitutionBuff]

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823


I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart.

Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820

Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind.

-Thomas Jefferson to James Smith, 1822.

[Diamond]

Given the open cooperation between Islamists and creationists, both of the straight-up and stealth (ID) variety, it's hardly irrelevant.

What if we substituted "ACLU" and "evolutionists" in the open cooperation category? Is that helpful? Do you think this "open cooperation" is the reason that Mr. Rosenbloom included this final tibit about the 45 member Muslim Student Association in his article about Behe and the other faculty members at Lehigh University, or did he just have an axe to touch up?

Cordially,

[cornelis]

var bad_monkey = 'burps and grins'
var good_monkey = 'quotes Shakespeare'

[Right Wing Professor]

What if we substituted "ACLU" and "evolutionists" in the open cooperation category?

Of course, you could equate fellow Americans whose politics differs with yours, with religious extremists hell-bent on destroying the United States. Some Dover School Board members have in fact said they fear the ACLU more than Osama Ben Laden.

I was a member of ACLU once. I left when they started defending affirmative action.

[USConstitutionBuff]

How do you reconcile the many materialistic statements of Thomas Jefferson, the Deist faith of Franklin (as stated in his autobiography he said of himself that he was a "thorough Deist"); with the ludicrous statement that our Founding Fathers were Creationists?

Do you actually believe it, and if so, what evidence do you have for it? Otherwise your just parroting empty propaganda devoid of substance or historic accuracy.

[Ichneumon]

[that put him squarely on the map in favor of an anti-evolution concept known as intelligent design]

A lie. ID is not anti-evolution.

ID as a *concept* is not anti-evolution, but the ID *movement* is very much anti-evolution. In fact, that's pretty much all they have -- ask them for evidence *for* ID, and they inevitably offer (alleged and usually flawed) evidence *against* evolution.

[Ichneumon]

Wait a minute. I thought that ID'rs were all Wild-EyedTM Fundamentalist Christian, Creationist, Bible-thumping ignoramuses.

Where exactly did you hear that allegation? Be specific and provide citations.

But change "Christian" to "religious" and "Bible-thumping" to "holy-book thumping", and yeah, that describes the large majority of "IDers". Surely you can't seriously dispute this.

Which is it?

Most IDers are religiously motivated. You know this is true, so don't pretend there's something wrong with pointing it out.

[Diamond]

Is that all you've got? Three quotations from the DEIST, Thomas Jefferson, the third of which is a general observation about human reason, and so does not have any direct bearing one way or the other on the subject of the Judeo-Christian religious, legal and cultural institutions and thought that undergirded the foundation of America?

Cordially,

[balrog666]

Busted-flush placemarker.

[cornelis]

ID as a *concept* is not anti-evolution, but the ID *movement* is very much anti-evolution

You make an intelligent point here.

I should quickly add, however, that the issue at stake in this case is the constitutionality regarding freedom of speech within the public square;

Is it not true that freedom of speech grants the right to express views that are wrong?

And yet, freedom of inquiry requires the mature; adolescents in power (both sides) cannot be patient and prefer to abuse it.

[Ichneumon]

Is that all you've got?

What more does he need in order to puncture your goofy implication that if Jefferson et al believed in some sort of deity -- even one not bearing much resemblance to your own -- that this somehow counts as "points" for your lame defense of the antics of *modern* creationism?

Apparently that's all *you* have.

Hint: Modern fringe creationism bears very little resemblance to the deism or ideals of Jefferson and the rest. But in your simplistic worldview, they "must" all be the same, right?

[Ichneumon]

Is it not true that freedom of speech grants the right to express views that are wrong?

Certainly.

And yet, freedom of inquiry requires the mature; adolescents in power (both sides) cannot be patient and prefer to abuse it.

You are misrepresenting the nature of the "ID" controversy. The Dover court case is about an issue aside from mere "free speech" and the "right to be wrong", as is the reaction to flawed propaganda being presented as if it were legitimate science.

[cornelis]

The ID controversy is not a court issue.

You don't go to court to settle a disputed opinion.

Of course there are papal courts, but you're intelligent enough to see this is not one of them.

You go to court to establish the law.

[USConstitutionBuff]

A materialist is not a Creationist. A Deist believes the world was created, but they are also not Creationists. You have provided no evidence that any of the Founding Fathers were Creationists. I have provided evidence that your statement that they all were is most certainly false.

I'd let your generalization stand if you said that "most of the Founding Fathers were Christian", or the fall back position you have now retreated to that "Christian religious,legal and cultural institutions and thought" under-gird the foundation of America. Absolutely correct. But when you LIE and say that they were all Creationists I have to bring out a few inconvenient (for you) facts.

And Thomas Jefferson was very much a Deist in philosophy, a materialist in regards to the supernatural, but considered himself a Christian (albeit one who denied the divinity of Christ, the virgin birth, and the Trinity). So your deviating from the Creationist party line by admitting he was influenced by Deist thought; they usually try to claim he was a Christian.