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Prove Christ exists, judge orders priest
Times Online UK ^ | January 3, 2006 | Richard Owen

Posted on 01/02/2006 4:30:26 PM PST by InvisibleChurch

AN ITALIAN judge has ordered a priest to appear in court this month to prove that Jesus Christ existed.

The case against Father Enrico Righi has been brought in the town of Viterbo, north of Rome, by Luigi Cascioli, a retired agronomist who once studied for the priesthood but later became a militant atheist.

Signor Cascioli, author of a book called The Fable of Christ, began legal proceedings against Father Righi three years ago after the priest denounced Signor Cascioli in the parish newsletter for questioning Christ’s historical existence.

Yesterday Gaetano Mautone, a judge in Viterbo, set a preliminary hearing for the end of this month and ordered Father Righi to appear. The judge had earlier refused to take up the case, but was overruled last month by the Court of Appeal, which agreed that Signor Cascioli had a reasonable case for his accusation that Father Righi was “abusing popular credulity”.

Signor Cascioli’s contention — echoed in numerous atheist books and internet sites — is that there was no reliable evidence that Jesus lived and died in 1st-century Palestine apart from the Gospel accounts, which Christians took on faith. There is therefore no basis for Christianity, he claims.

Signor Cascioli’s one-man campaign came to a head at a court hearing last April when he lodged his accusations of “abuse of popular credulity” and “impersonation”, both offences under the Italian penal code. He argued that all claims for the existence of Jesus from sources other than the Bible stem from authors who lived “after the time of the hypothetical Jesus” and were therefore not reliable witnesses.

Signor Cascioli maintains that early Christian writers confused Jesus with John of Gamala, an anti-Roman Jewish insurgent in 1st-century Palestine. Church authorities were therefore guilty of “substitution of persons”.

The Roman historians Tacitus and Suetonius mention a “Christus” or “Chrestus”, but were writing “well after the life of the purported Jesus” and were relying on hearsay.

Father Righi said there was overwhelming testimony to Christ’s existence in religious and secular texts. Millions had in any case believed in Christ as both man and Son of God for 2,000 years.

“If Cascioli does not see the sun in the sky at midday, he cannot sue me because I see it and he does not,” Father Righi said.

Signor Cascioli said that the Gospels themselves were full of inconsistencies and did not agree on the names of the 12 apostles. He said that he would withdraw his legal action if Father Righi came up with irrefutable proof of Christ’s existence by the end of the month.

The Vatican has so far declined to comment.

THE EVIDENCE

The Gospels say that Jesus was born to the Virgin Mary in Bethlehem, grew up in Nazareth, preached and performed miracles in Galilee and died on the Cross in Jerusalem

In his Antiquities of the Jews at the end of the 1st century, Josephus, the Jewish historian, refers to Jesus as “a wise man, a doer of wonderful works” who “drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles”

Muslims believe Jesus was a great prophet. Many Jewish theologians regard Jesus as an itinerant rabbi who popularised many of the beliefs of liberal Jews. Neither Muslims nor Jews believe he was the Messiah and Son of God

Tacitus, the Roman historian who lived from 55 to 120, mentions “Christus” in his Annals. In about 120 Suetonius, author of The Lives of the Caesars, says: “Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, Emperor Claudius expelled them from Rome.”


TOPICS: News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: antichristianity; jesushaters; priest
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To: metmom
Funny how the Bible, well documented and verified, is given less credibility than other ancient documents and events that have far less to back them up.

How about this approach:

There are people in modern times who claim to have seen and spoken to Jesus. Would they be reliable witnesesses? Didn't Oral Roberts claim to have seen Jesus? I'm sure there are others.

My point is how could the atheist challenge someone's claim that "I saw and spoke to Jesus on Wednesday 2:00 PM." Unless the atheist could prove the witness was somewhere else on Wednesday at 2:00 PM, how could he impeach his testimony? (Provided the witness was otherwise honest and reliable).

121 posted on 01/02/2006 8:34:22 PM PST by Auntie Dem (Hey! Hey! Ho! Ho! Terrorist lovers gotta go!)
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To: Donald Meaker
So why is the middle initial H?

That's right. And Christ is not a Jewish name.

But seriously...

Paul (ne Shaul of Tarsus) lived before the Gospels were written (3 a.d.-64 a.d. approximately). He was persecuting Jewish believers in Jesus's divinity who existed before the written gospel, and his message spread in ancient Palestine while there were still many alive from Jesus's time. There would not have been any believers to persecute or any historical figure for Paul to see on his way to Damascus if Jesus had not in fact lived.

As far as I know, early Jewish accounts don't say that there was no Jesus. Rather, that he did not conform to prophecy about the Messiah (e.g. he was a Galilean, a group with no historical claims to prophecy), or that he never claimed divinity, or that accounts of his resurrection were made up.

James, probably Jacob, the brother of Jesus, is I understand a solidly documented historic figure during the time when the "Nazarenes" existed as part of the Jewish people.

If Jesus were a fairy tale concocted to conform to Old Testament prophecies of the Messiah, the writers could have done a much "better" job. Instead, there are unhelpful nuggets (such as Jesus's own family trying to drag him away) and inconsistencies that the recounters felt obliged to leave in out of adherence to the traditions.
122 posted on 01/02/2006 8:39:14 PM PST by kenavi ("Remember, your fathers sacrificed themselves without need of a messianic complex." Ariel Sharon)
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To: fish hawk

Let the Muslims prove that Mohammed existed. So far as I know, the only sources we have are Muslim in origin. But the opinion that the Christian Scriptures are unreliable has nothing to do with the well establishmed fact that they are documents from the period. What evidence does the gentleman have to prove that their testimony is false?


123 posted on 01/02/2006 8:43:42 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: keithtoo

The judge requesting the historical documentation dismissed the allegedly libeled atheist's case. His appellate court ordered him to take the case. Thus, the reason for his request.


124 posted on 01/02/2006 8:51:56 PM PST by PeoplesRepublicOfWashington (How long do we have to pretend that the vast majority of Democrats are patriots?)
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To: Nabber
" Nobody risks their life for an idea that they know is a lie."

Democrats do it every day, as do members of the MSP...

125 posted on 01/02/2006 9:06:23 PM PST by tracer
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To: bigsigh

They have different authors and at least one of them wrote without reference to the others. It seems as though they were setting down in writing what had been common report but with a different purpose in mind. We can also add the testimony of Paul, whose occasional letters mention a meeting with men who knew Jesus personally. It may be reasonable to say that they were "fictionalizing" (based on a true story) and saying that Jesus was a totally ficticious character.


126 posted on 01/02/2006 9:07:59 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: Donald Meaker
John doesn't have Jesus H. Christ even being born ...and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.
127 posted on 01/02/2006 9:10:30 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: metmom

Biblical manuscripts are the oldest of all ancient documents, with few exceptions. That is why the Dead Sea documents caused such a sensation.


128 posted on 01/02/2006 9:12:38 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: AnAmericanMother
The tally mentioned in Luke may have been an enrollment rather than a census, or it may have been while Quirinius was holding a lower or adjunct office. The evidence is by no means clear in either direction, Father Brown thought that Luke was "wrong." But that ignores the possibility that we just don't have enough evidence. In other words, Luke was talking about events that are unrecorded in surviving documents. Maybe Luke's only "fault" was grandiloquently taking a local event and making Caesar himself the cause of it all. maybe to make Caesar's minions the instruments of the true "king of kings."
129 posted on 01/02/2006 9:21:27 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: keithtoo
Pard, you must remember that in this age, to many, if not most, secular folks, there is no such thing as "truth".

"They" deny the Jewish Holocaust, "they" insist that "Uncle Joe" and Chairman Mao were misunderstood heroes. These are the people who think Klintoon's impeachment was about sex. These are the democRAT's base.

"These people" are frikkin insane.

"Truth" to "them" is whatever "they" believe it is, a la Orwell.

INSANE.
130 posted on 01/02/2006 11:15:13 PM PST by porkchops 4 mahound ("Si vis pacem, para bellum", If you wish peace, prepare for war.)
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To: bigsigh

The Gospels believed to be written by Apostles are Matthew and JOhn. Mark and Luke came later.


131 posted on 01/03/2006 1:19:46 AM PST by Bob J (RIGHTALK.com...a conservative alternative to NPR!)
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To: NormsRevenge
Italy has its own version of the 9th Circuit, I see.

Apparently so. Maybe the 9th Circuit can be reapportioned to include Viterbo, Italy and Graz, Austria. They seem to have a disproportionate amount of wackos, just like Sin Freaksicko.

132 posted on 01/03/2006 1:28:42 AM PST by L.N. Smithee (How Many Lies Will The MSM Repeat To Enable a Bush Impeachment? http://lnsmitheeblog.blogspot.com)
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To: Raycpa

The life of Christ is better attested than that of Alexander the Great, Socrates, Cleopatra, or Charlemagne. Are we to assume that none of them existed either?


133 posted on 01/03/2006 8:37:45 AM PST by Antoninus (Hillary smiles every time a Freeper trashes Santorum.)
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To: Antoninus
There is ample proof for the existence of the historical Jesus, both within and outside the Scriptures. Here is some helpful material that I'm putting together for a Christian Ed class on the Resurrection at my church in February:

Defending the Resurrection

II. The Facts (4 + 1)

A. Jesus’ death by crucifixion

Crucifixion was a form of execution used by the Romans to punish members of the lower class, slaves, soldiers, the violently rebellious, and those guilty of treason. 1st century Jewish historian Josephus reports that during the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. the Roman soldiers felt such hatred toward the Jews that they crucified a multitude:

“When caught, they resisted, and were then tortured and crucified before the walls as a terrible warning to the people within. Titus pitied them – some 500 were captured daily- but dismissing those captured by force was dangerous, and guarding such numbers would imprison the guards. Out of rage and hatred, the soldiers nailed their prisoners in different postures, and so great was their number that space could not be found for the crosses.” Jewish Wars V, 451

1. Reported in all four Gospels.

2. Reported by a number of non-Christian sources of the period.

a. Josephus (37 or 38 A.D., died after 100 A.D.)

A Jewish aristocrat, a priestly politician, a commander of rebel troops in Galilee during the First Jewish Revolt against Rome (67-73 A.D.). captured by the Romans in 67, he served them as mediator and interpreter during the rest of the revolt. Brought to Rome, he composed two great works: The Jewish War (early 70’s) and the Jewish Antiquities, finished about 93, 94.

“Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day. “ (Antiquities, XVIII, 33) a/k/a The Testimonium.

Controversial and discredited language is in italics. Josephus, writing a little more than 50 years after Jesus’ life and crucifixion, attests to the truth that Jesus’ life and death were not figments of the church’s imagination.

b. Cornelius Tacitus (c. A.D. 55-120)

Roman historian who lived through the reigns of over a half dozen Roman emperors. Has been called the greatest historian of ancient Rome. Most acclaimed works are the Annals (covers period from Augustus’ death in 14 A.D. to that of Nero in 68 A.D.) and the Histories (from Nero’s death and proceeds to that of Domitian in 96 A.D.).

Writing of the reign of Nero and the burning of Rome, Tacitus reported:

“…he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with the most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius; but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief origin- nated, but through the city of Rome also.” (Annals, XV, 44)

c. Lucian of Samosata (c. mid-2nd century)

A Greek satirist who spoke scornfully of Christ and the Christians, never assuming or arguing they were unreal.

“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day- the distin- guished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was cru- cified on that account…” (The Death of Peregrine, 11-13)

d. Mara Bar-Sarapion (sometime after A.D. 70)

A Syrian and probably Stoic philosopher, wrote a letter to his son from prison, encouraging him to pursue wisdom. He compares Jesus to the philosophers Socrates and Pythagoras.

“What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their Wise King? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: The Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the Wise King die for good; He lived on in the teaching which He had given.” (c. late 1st-century; located in British Museum)

Certainly not a Christian since he puts Jesus on equal footing with Socrates and Pythagoras; He has Jesus living on in His teaching rather than His resurrection; and in another place he expresses a belief in polytheism. But his reference to Jesus indicates that he did not question whether Jesus lived or not and that He was executed.

e. The Babylonian Talmud

“It has been taught: On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu.” Sanhedrin 43a (probably late 2nd century). Another version of the text reads, “Yeshu, the Nazarene.”

“Yeshu” translates through Greek to English as Jesus.

The word “hanged” is a way of referring to crucifixion in antiquity. Deut. 21:23; Gal. 3:13

Jewish writing of antiquity never denied the existence, miracles, and execution of Jesus.

Finally, even the highly critical scholar of the Jesus Seminar, John Dominic Crossan, has written, “That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can be.” Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography, 145.

B. Jesus’ disciples believed that he rose and appeared to them. This is shown by the disciples words and deeds.

There is a virtual consensus among scholars who study Jesus’ resurrection that His disciples really believed that He appeared to them risen from the dead. This scholarly consensus is reached from data that suggest that (1) the disciples themselves claimed that the risen Jesus had appeared to them, and (2) his disciples were radically transformed from a cowering band to bold proponents of the gospel.

BUT suppose a skeptic says, “I don’t believe that the Bible is inspired by God and I’m not certain the four gospels were written by the four alleged authors. So how do you trace these claims back to the lips of the disciples themselves? And even so, it doesn’t mean they believed it. They could have been lying.”

Using minimal facts approach, there is no need to defend the position that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John wrote the four gospels while defending the Resurrection. Instead, we’ll look at a number of ancient sources that will lead us to our conclusion about the beliefs of the disciples.

1. They claimed it; Early and independent sources lead to this conclusion (POW).

a. Paul

(1) Paul said that disciples claimed Jesus rose.

(a) 1 Corinthians 15: 9-11

(b) Galatians 2: 1-10

(2) Paul’s authority

(a) Claimed by Paul; 2 Corinthians 10:8; 11:5; 13:10; 1 Thess. 2:6; 4:2

(b) Acknowledged by Apostolic Fathers (Clement of Rome, Polycarp, Ignatius)

Paul provides very strong evidence for establishing the Resurrection claims of the original disciples. He claimed that his own authority in the church was equal to that of the other apostles. That authority was acknowledged by a number of the apostolic fathers soon after the completion of the NT. Paul reported that he knew at least some of the other disciples, even the “big three’- Peter, James, and John. All three of these went to their deaths claiming that Jesus had risen and appeared to them.

Acts reports that Paul and the disciples knew and fellowshipped with one another.

Therefore, what Paul has to say about the other apostles is important. Paul knew the apostles personally and reports that they claimed that Jesus rose from the dead.

SKEPTIC RESPONSE: “But this is from the Bible, and I don’t believe the Bible.” Blanket rejection will not do. We are not assuming inspiration or even general reliability of the NT in our case for Jesus’ resurrection. With minimal facts approach, we are only regarding the NT as an ancient volume of literature containing 27 separate books and letters. Then we are using these data that are well evidenced and accepted by nearly every scholar who studies the subject, even the skeptical ones. Paul IS a source independent of the original disciples.

b. Oral Tradition

People in antiquity did not have our tools for recording and passing along information. Relied on oral tradition to teach others. Scholars identify several instances where oral traditions have been copied into the writings which later comprised the NT. These include carefully constructed creeds, hymns, sermon summaries, and poetry.

This is significant because the oral tradition had to exist prior to the NT writings in order for the NT authors to include them. This takes us back to some of the earliest teachings of the Christian church.

We will look at two types of oral tradition found in the NT that support our point that original disciples claimed that Jesus rose from the dead and appeared to them: Creeds and sermon summaries.

(1) Early creed; 1 Cor. 15:3-8

A creed was a popular means to pass along important information in a format friendly to memorization and retention.

(a) How do we know it’s a creed?

i. “Delivered” and “received” communicates that Paul is giving them the tradition he received from others.

ii. It contains indicators of an Aramaic original; “Cephas” is Aramaic for Peter, but Paul wrote in Greek.

iii. Fourfold use of the Greek term hoti (“that”). Common form in Aramaic tradition.

iv. Text’s content is stylized, containing parallelisms.

Paul’s introductory comment denotes the imparting of oral tradition. He’s saying he delivered to the Corinthian church info he received from others. Many critical scholars hold that Paul received it from the disciples Peter and James while visiting them in Jerusalem 3 years after his conversion.

Since first Christians were Jews, we would expect early creeds and hymns would appear in their primary spoken language, Aramaic.

In Greek, the first and third lines are longer, have the same construction, and contain the phrase “according to the Scriptures” at the end, followed by a short sentence beginning with “that.”

(b) When is date of origin of the creed? Very soon after Jesus’ crucifixion (probably within five years).

i. Crucifixion dated A.D. 30 by most scholars.

ii. Paul’s conversion dated A.D. 31-33.

iii. Paul goes away for three years, then visits Peter and James in Jerusalem (Gal. 1:18-19). Most scholars believe he received the creed at this time.

iv. Other option is that Paul received the creed in Damascus just after conversion (three years earlier).

Either way, he probably received the creed within 2 to 5 years of Jesus’ crucifixion (which places the origin of the creed even earlier). At the latest, we have source material that dates within two decades of the event of Jesus’ resurrection and comes from a source that Paul thought was reliable.

Dean John Rodgers of Trinity Episcopal School for Ministry comments, “This is the sort of data that historians of antiquity drool over.” “Who Was Jesus?” Time magazine, Aug. 15, 1988, 41.

(2) Sermon summaries; Acts 1-5, 10, 13, 17

(a) Origin of sermons dated probably within 20 years of Jesus’ crucifixion.

(b) Important points concerning sermon summaries

i. Early testimony of Jesus’ resurrection.

ii. Possible eyewitness testimony to Jesus’ resurrection.

iii. Group appearances; Acts 10, 13

Recorded dialogues in the 1st century had to have been summaries prepared after the fact by the listeners. Most sermons last longer than five minutes. Yet most sermons in the NT can be read in that amount of time or less. Most scholars agree that many of the sermons in Acts contain oral summaries included in the text that can be traced to the earliest teachings of the church and possibly to the disciples themselves.

Another reason for identifying these summaries as oral tradition is their possession of Jewish words and traits, or Semitisms. Some of the sermon summaries, Acts 10 for example, are written in rough Greek, while the rest of Acts is written using the Greek of an educated person. These traits may well reflect that the summaries were from an original source in Aramaic, and later translated into Greek. Luke, the author of Acts, was a Gentile physician educated in Greek.

We say “possibly to the disciples” because we are considering the minimal facts approach, not because we doubt the testimony of Luke.

At minimum, there appear to have been standard sermons preached during the earliest times of the church, contemporaneous to the apostles, attributed to the apostles, and in agreement with Paul’s eyewitness testimony that this is what they were preaching. If these words did not come from the lips of the apostles, we are very close.

c. Written tradition

(1) All four Gospels; Regardless of critics’ skepticism, the Gospels contain multiple claims by disciples, written within 70 years of Jesus, that Jesus rose from the dead.

It is well accepted that the four Gospels and Acts were written during the 1st century. 70 years after Jesus’ resurrection at the latest.

(2) Apostolic Fathers

These are the church leaders who succeeded the apostles. Probable that some of these men had fellowshipped with the apostles or were instructed and appointed by them. Two of the apostolic fathers listed in the outline taught that the apostles were dramatically inspired by Jesus’ resurrection.

(a) Clement, bishop of Rome (c. 30-100)

May have been the Clement to whom Paul referred in Philippians 4:3, although this cannot be confirmed. Clement wrote a letter to the church in Corinth around 95 A.D. in which, referring to the apostles, he wrote “Therefore, having received orders and complete certainty caused by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and believing in the Word of God, they went with the Holy Spirit’s certainty, preaching the good news that the Kingdom of God is about to come.” First Clement 42:3

Speaking of Clement and his letter, the early church father, Irenaeus, around 185 A.D. wrote this behind-the-scenes information:

“Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to still have the preaching of the apostles echoing and their traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone, for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles. In the time of this Clement, no small discussion having occurred among the brothers at Corinth, the church in Rome dispatched a most powerful letter to Corinthians.” Against Heresies, 3.3.3

Thus, it appears that Clement had seen the apostles and fellowshipped with them. This renders great historical value to Clement’s writings concerning the apostles and their teachings.

(b) Polycarp, bishop of Smyrna (c. 69-c. 155).

What were Polycarp’s credentials? Irenaeus also wrote regarding him:

“But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles.” Against Heresies 3.3.4

He was martyred in Smyrna around A.D. 160 at the age of 86. Around 110, wrote to the Philippian church, speaking of the righteousness and endurance in the lives of several including “Paul himself and the other apostles.” He wrote: “For they did not love the present age, but him who died for our benefit and for our sake was raised by God.” To the Philippians.

As with Clement, Polycarp had been taught and appointed by the apostles and his statements concerning Jesus’ resurrection can be linked to the apostles.

The three categories of sources—Paul, Oral tradition, & Written tradition—point to multiple, very early, and eyewitness to the disciples’ claims of witnessing the risen Jesus.

How use POW? The idea is that you don’t need to overload the listener with details. Present POW and unpack details as needed.

2. They believed it.

“The most drastic way of dismissing the evidence [for the Resurrection] would be to say that these stories wee mere fabrications, that they were pure lies. But, so far as I know, not a single critic today would take such an attitude. In fact, it would really be an impossible position. Think of the number of witnesses, over 500. …Think of the psychological absurdity of picturing a little band of defeated cowards covering in an upper room one day and a few days later transformed into a company that no persecution could silence- and then attempting to attribute this dramatic change to nothing more convincing than a miserable fabrication they were trying to foist upon the world. That simply wouldn’t make sense.” J.N.D. Anderson, “The Resurrection of Jesus Christ” Christianity Today, March 29m 1968.

a. Their transformation is strongly documented- from men who abandoned and denied Jesus at his arrest and execution to men who, to their own harm, boldly and publicly proclaimed him risen from the dead.

(1) Luke; Acts 7, 12 We are told specifically that the Resurrection was their central message Acts 4:2, 33. The disciples were willing to suffer for their belief that the risen Jesus had appeared to them.

(2) Clement of Rome (c. 30-100), a contemporary of the apostles, reports the sufferings and deaths of Peter and Paul:

“Because of envy and jealousy, the greatest and most righteous pillars have been persecuted and contended unto death. Let us set the good apostles before our eyes. Peter, who because of unrighteous envy endured, not one or two, but many afflictions, and having borne witness went to the due glorious place. Because of envy and rivalries, steadfast Paul pointed to the prize. Seven times chained, exiled, stoned, having become a preacher both in the East and in the West, he received honor fitting of his faith, having taught righteousness to the whole world, unto the boundary on which the sun sets; having testified in the presence of the leaders. Thus he was freed from the world and went to the holy place. He became a great example of steadfast- ness.” First Clement 5: 2-7

(3) Ignatius, bishop of the church in Antioch, Syria, who likely knew the apostles, reports in a letter written to the church in Smyrna around A.D. 110, that the disciples were so encouraged by seeing and touching the risen Jesus, they were unaffected by the fear of martyrdom.

“And when [Jesus] came to these with Peter, he said to them: ‘Take, handle me and see that I am not a bodiless demon.’ And immediately they handled him and believed, having known his flesh and blood. Because of this they also despised death; but beyond death they were found.” To the Smyrnaeans 3:2

Greek word for “despised” is better translated “cared nothing for” or “disregarded.” And their attitude toward death was demonstrated by their own boldness when the moment of execution actually came. They knew that immortality awaited them.

(4) Polycarp, instructed and appointed by the disciples, attests that Paul and the other disciples suffered for their beliefs. Discussed their “unlimited endurance” in his letter to the church in Philippi. He added, “They are in the place due them with the Lord, in association with him also they suffered together. For they did not love the present age….” To the Philippians 9:2. Polycarp himself would later follow their example of strength and conviction.

(5) Dionysius of Corinth (c. 170) wrote of the martyrdoms of Peter and Paul.

(6) Tertullian, an early church father, wrote just prior to 200 that the history of “the lives of the Caesars” records the martyrdoms of Peter and Paul (probably c. 64 when Rome burned during Nero’s reign).

(7) Origen (c. 185-c. 254), another church father, wrote that the disciples’ belief in Jesus’ resurrection allowed them “to laugh at all the troubles of life, beholding the life eternal and the resurrection clearly demonstrated to them both in word and deed.” Contra Celsum 2:77

b. Important points

(1) The willingness of the apostles to suffer and die for their testimony of the risen Jesus is evidence of their sincerity. They truly believed.

A skeptic might ask, “How do you know that they willingly died? And perhaps some of them recanted.” Continuing on the path of preaching the gospel despite the early martyrdoms of Stephen and James the brother of John (Acts 12:1-3) as well as the imprisonments and sufferings of Paul and Peter , demonstrates a willingness to endure suffering and martyrdom, regardless of whether these were actually experienced. Furthermore, the primary purpose of getting someone to recant a belief is to publicize it so that others will be discouraged. There is no evidence that such a recantation occurred and if the news had spread that one or more of the original disciples had recanted, we would expect that Christianity would have been dealt a severe blow.

(2) It’s not implied that their sincerity verifies the truth of their beliefs; people have long been willing to suffer and die for various religions and causes. It does demonstrate that they were not deliberately lying. Liars make poor martyrs. Atheists have died for communism and believing Islamic terrorists have become suicide bombers.

*There is an important difference between the apostle martyrs and those who die for their beliefs today. Modern martyrs act solely out of their trust in beliefs that others have taught them. The apostles died for holding to their own testimony that they had personally seen the risen Jesus. Contemporary martyrs die for what they believe to be true. The disciples of Jesus died for what they knew to be either true or false.

3. The fact is strongly attested to, then, that Jesus’ disciples sincerely believed that he rose from the dead and appeared to them. Thus, legend and lies fail to account for the appearances, because the original apostles both claimed and believed that the risen Jesus had appeared to them.

Because the original, eyewitness apostles were making the claim, Jesus’ resurrection was not the result of myth making. His life story was not embellished over time if the facts can be traced to the original witnesses. If they really believed, we can also dismiss contentions that they stole Jesus’ body and made up the story. Virtually all scholars, even the most skeptical, agree that the apostles saw something and believed it was the risen Jesus.

134 posted on 01/03/2006 11:19:45 AM PST by dukeman
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To: InvisibleChurch

Atheism is the highest expression of arrogance.


135 posted on 01/03/2006 11:22:52 AM PST by Beckwith (The liberal press has picked sides ... and they have sided with the Islamofascists)
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To: starbase

Is it prove he's God become man or prove whether a man named Jesus existed?


136 posted on 01/03/2006 11:27:31 AM PST by Lx (Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.)
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To: dukeman
That should just about cover it.

(why don't you mail a copy to Fr. Righi?)

137 posted on 01/03/2006 11:31:21 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: InvisibleChurch
The gospel of John was in existence in EGYPT by the year 115 AD, according to the best dating methods. I think it was the Bodmer Papyrus (my old memory fails me). That means that this LAST gospel to be written had time to filter out from Palestine to Egypt (give it 10 years?), putting the latest reasonable date for the writing of the gospel at 105 AD, which puts the synoptics at at least 20-30 years earlier. (Clement of Rome was quoting the gospels in 60-70 AD). This means that the claims of the gospel were in print and all over the Mediterranean world by 95 AD, less than 70 years after the death of Christ. It doesn't make any difference if they were "the bible" or not (there was no "Bible" then, as the canon wasn't determined conclusively till around 300 AD), the fact is that historical claims were made about Jesus of Nazareth and were widely circulated around the empire, causing riots in Rome (the "Chrestus" of Suetonius)among the Jews, and bringing in at least 14 volumes of writing by ante nicene Fathers from various points in the empire discussing this person.

Only a bonafide brain dead idiot would deny that the person of Jesus existed.

138 posted on 01/03/2006 11:34:10 AM PST by chronic_loser ((Handle provided free of charge as flame bait for the neurally vacant.))
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To: taxesareforever

He should follow up that with the second book, "A Case for Faith" by the same author... equally as good.


139 posted on 01/03/2006 11:36:05 AM PST by Pan_Yans Wife ("Death is better, a milder fate than tyranny. "--Aeschylus)
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To: maestro

??

Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;


140 posted on 01/03/2006 11:39:02 AM PST by wallcrawlr (Pray for the troops [all the troops here and abroad]: Success....and nothing less!!)
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