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To: Miss Marple
This is nothing new. NSA is listening to calls into the USA from AQ and known AQ contacts. They are not listening to you, unless you are getting calls from such people.

I've noticed this claim quite a few times, but interstingly, I notice they're not pushing it very hard. If they're tapping an al qaeda phone, and you happen to be the one they call, then they aren't violating your fourth-amendment rights at all. That argument would be watertight, so I wondered why they didn't use it more. But I realized why, later. They aren't using it because that's not what's happening: what's happening is that once you receive a phone call, they're tapping your phone as well, without a warrant.

It's ironic, because under those circumstances probable cause is airtight, and getting a warrant should take about five minutes. IOW, the argument for a warrantless tap is in reality the strongest argument why they should certainly go for a warrant.

23 posted on 01/03/2006 4:18:52 AM PST by Shalom Israel (Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.)
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To: Shalom Israel

"I've noticed this claim quite a few times, but interestingly, I notice they're not pushing it very hard. If they're tapping an al qaeda phone, and you happen to be the one they call, then they aren't violating your fourth-amendment rights at all."

What am I getting wrong here? I thought it was EAVESDROPPING, not tapping that was being questioned.


36 posted on 01/03/2006 5:32:49 AM PST by upcountry miss
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To: Shalom Israel
"they're tapping your phone as well, without a warrant."

Define "tapping".

Is that when someone "listens" to your conversations? When they monitor your outbound calls to another known al Qaeda number?

52 posted on 01/03/2006 5:54:25 AM PST by angkor
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To: Shalom Israel
It's ironic, because under those circumstances probable cause is airtight, and getting a warrant should take about five minutes.

Not with a democrat judge playing politics with our safety.

119 posted on 01/03/2006 8:04:19 AM PST by Lady Heron
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To: Shalom Israel
It's ironic, because under those circumstances probable cause is airtight, and getting a warrant should take about five minutes. IOW, the argument for a warrantless tap is in reality the strongest argument why they should certainly go for a warrant.

It should take a few minutes, but it's often a few weeks. While it's true that the approval rate is very high, that's because the vetting process is extremely stringent. So the 'tap now warrant later' line doesn't work, because it the warrant request wouldn't be ready by the deadline, and may not be approved anyway.

On that note, you don't want judges to simply rubber stamp warrants anyway. They're doing their job correctly. A warrant can be used in building a criminal case, and so needs to be a legitimate tool of law enforcement. But for intelligence collection purposes, you don't care about pressing charges, only disrupting incoming attacks. Authorizing 'rubber stamped warrants' is a threat to our personal liberties far, far greater than any secret wiretapping program.

That said, FISA judges are not going to give a warrant to wiretap a phone based on no evidence other than calling contacts. It could be a wrong number, there could be a U.S. citizen on the other end of the line that may not realize they're talking to a terrorist, you just don't know. It's suspicious, sure, but there's no proof, in the legal sense, that the person on the other end of the phone is doing anything illegal.

You could probably do some quick research into a suspicious number and determine if there's a bad guy at the other end, but if you're waiting on a warrant, you aren't going to get anywhere based on a 'hunch'. If you had corroborating information like a source on the inside passing us information, that would be good grounds, but our HUMINT is still underdeveloped and weak.

In short, it seems that this program is closing a legal loophole that created a blind spot in our intelligence collection. The same blind spot that allowed Al Qaida to sneak past us prior to 9/11. With a transnational enemy you need a tool to combat the threat effectively. We simply didn't have one before this.

141 posted on 01/03/2006 10:18:57 AM PST by Steel Wolf (If the Founders had wanted the President to be spying on our phone calls, they would have said so!)
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