Posted on 05/17/2006 7:47:58 AM PDT by Pukin Dog
Edited on 05/17/2006 8:30:59 AM PDT by Lead Moderator. [history]
The analogy is interesting, but a comprehensive plan addresses the border security as well. What is different, is the "guest worker program" and that is where we are at a impasse.
We both concur that increased border security is critical to the process.
It is my sincere belief that if we do not do the rest of it, the border security will only help to control drugs, terrorist incursions and the like. It will not solve the illegal immigration situation, and will only delay the inevitable and frustrate the situation of some 12 million people and their extended families, numbering some 30-35 million more....(just plucked that from my estimate bin)
This is a huge problem Dirt Guy, and simplifying it does not help to solve it.
"I've got a date with some Largemouth Bass."
Very disturbing mental image.
>>I'd say there are no hard and fast rules concerning a particular freepers political belief system. I'm amazed at times the freepers I've found myself on the same side fighting for a particular cause. Many years we couldn't agree on anything.
I can say for sure just keep freeping gondramB, if it doesn't make you battle hardened it'll definately educate you in some area.<<
Its every day... I learn something or I have to adjust my view on something in light of new information.
And that's an excellent point about an individual's belief system. If the people who criticize conservatives without knowing conservatives would spend some time here they would realize how diverse this group is.
Even more so, if you consider that I am only interested in the really fat ones.
I agree entirely. And I am not trying to simplify it. However, IMO, Bush needs to table his guest worker/amnesty proposals until such time that we have security improved in all the areas you cited. That, IMO, is the one place this debate can be simplified.
Ah, but I found some of the soundytes (and textbytes) about Miers to be sexist before it was ever mentioned publically by the administration (I'm a woman). There HAVE been some extremely racist statements made by what I prefer to believe is the moonbat segments of the close-the-border crowd and that has to be denounced because A:) it's wrong, B:) they're making Mainstream America look bad.
Racism and sexism existed before the left hijacked the terms for use as a political club. It's not President Bush's fault that the left has worn so many terms so thin by terminal overusage. The administration was, in the two cases you cited, calling a spade a spade, not playing Democrat games.
I have the oddest feeling that when the border issue loses the Senate because REpublicans stayed home or voted D in "protest", the sense of immediacy regarding it will mysteriously die down...and in the end nothing will get done. Hopefully I'm just being cynical, but if I am right, then we conservatives will have played right into the Democrats' hands.
Too funny.
My husband did that a little while ago with this special box of chocolate french mints I had stashed in my office. He gobbled them up, then put rocks in the tray, so it would feel as if I still had some left. Then he left me a note asking for my forgiveness.
I have GOT to find a better hiding place...;^)
"Even more so, if you consider that I am only interested in the really fat ones."
Goin' trans-species dating, and slummin' while you're at it!
Call me "Pukin' Frog"!
BTW, if you like bass, you should beat around the marish at the edge of the lake where the bass are and club some croakers. Make the legs just like you'd make the fish.
They really believe is this, as did Reagan with his "Shining City America".
These are all long term goals, and we have all lauded them in the past for this vision.
Why is it that now it is some ulterior motive.
I'll tell you why......because someone really wants to destroy these visionary ideas by labeling them in the negative.
It is really surprising to me that so many have bought into it and are now visibly and actively participating with some very strange bedfellows to undermine what the Republican Party has stood for. A vision that has been our motto for a generation.
Please tell me you don't believe this is a "true conservative" principle. As Reagan said, "Government is not a solution to our problem. Government is the problem".
(Boy I had to do a LOT of reading to catch up! My head hurts!)
Well done. Thank you.
"If they ram it through, there may be an upheaval in this country like we've not seen since the civil war. I think the revolt will be in far more than just the republican party."
2008 looks like another one of those Anderson/Perot years, when an independent candidacy sweeps the Midwest (and perhaps California) like wildfire.
Or we could just agree to a fence and keep the GOP together now and not have to worry about that.
Are you kidding me, trying to pull this nonsense? The biggest problem with the fedgov nowadays is that it does way too much of what it shouldn't be doing and far too little of what it should be doing. That is what Reagan was referring to - unless you think his arms buildup was wrong as well (that was government, you know).
And border security is clearly a vital, enumerated function for the fedgov under the Constitution. So is legislating and controlling immigration.
"I have the oddest feeling that when the border issue loses the Senate because REpublicans stayed home or voted D in "protest", the sense of immediacy regarding it will mysteriously die down...and in the end nothing will get done. Hopefully I'm just being cynical, but if I am right, then we conservatives will have played right into the Democrats' hands."
Then let's not go down that road, and agree to put up a sea-to-sea fence. Then the issue really WILL die down.
Sorry, but Bush is doing the undermining here - unless you think counting on near-total Dem support to pass his immigration agenda is somehow representative of what the Republican Party stands for.
This is precisely why it is so dangerous to encourage any attacks upon the GOP. While it may not be perfect outside the GOP is only varying degrees of insanity.
The wave of madness sweeping the FR over Illegals is as dangerous a threat to this site as has ever occurred. And this site is the biggest problem the radical left has. If it is compromised and made ineffective by the Ultras this nation is in for very heavy weather.
"It all rides on what comes out of conference. In this example of immigration reform the ball rests with Congress and W was proper to state as such in his speech."
This is true, it does lie with Congress.
But the President is the leader of the Party, and the President's stance backs McCain and the guest-worker faction in the GOP, which is the lethal minority here.
Probably, the result will be no agreement.
The House Republicans aren't going to accept amnesty or guest worker.
The Senate probably won't accept anything without it.
So, we will have status quo...which is an uncontrolled, open border.
And the BorderBots will stay home.
We so needed the President to shape the issue differently.
But he didn't, and he won't.
The will isn't there, in the Senate, to work against the President, although it is true that nothing quite focuses the mind like the approach of the executioner, so there's always a possibility the Senate could agree to a very robust sea-to-sea barrier and postpone talk about guest worker awaiting some new commission report.
Well, I know that actually. It's a Republican issue, which the conservative base is happily tearing down the whole party over, while being cheered by Democrats, with the end result that nothing will every really get done.
Also, they may have been afraid of being Waco-ed by the Clintonistas if they tried massive protests or volunteer organizations patrolling the border.
It doesn't change the fact that the problem also exicted under a Democrat administration and nothing ever got done.
My goal is to see something get done.
That is exactly what some of the loudest detractors of the president's attempts to control the border want: a hermetically sealed society. If you believe such a thing is not only impossible (it's been tried) but hurtful to our country both socially and economically, you are an evil globalist.
They are the all or nothing crowd. They demand all or nothing and get nothing. The rest of us lose.
"My goal is to see something get done."
Mine is to win in 2006.
To do that, the Republican Establishment has to visibly make a major concession to the Border Conservatives. Bush's speech was a finger in their eye to go along with what McCain/Kennedy are trying to do in the Senate.
The only way to split the baby is to change the wording on the Fence proposal. The President talked about border enforcement, but then he went out of his way to propose weak measures that BorderBots DON'T want, to avoid giving them what they DO want, which is a sea-to-sea Israeli-style fence. That's the most doable thing.
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