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Cars run on water: Miracle or scam?
World Net Daily, CNN ^ | 05-20-06

Posted on 05/23/2006 9:27:27 AM PDT by floridaobserver

Though the developer of a technology that uses water to produce a flammable gas says it provides a solution to high gas prices plaguing the nation, detractors claim the businessman's idea is a scam.

Denny Klein is president of Hydrogen Technologies Applications in Clearwater, Fla. His patented machine uses an electrical charge to separate the atoms of H2O into HHO, a gas he calls "Aquygen."

"You get a huge energy response," Klein told the Tampa Tribune. "But this gas is very, very safe."

He first used the fuel to power a welding tool, but soon tried it out in a hybrid automobile.

The flame, though on its own registers just 259 degrees Fahrenheit, heats up to the melting point of whatever substance it touches, explained Steve Lusko, project manager for Hydrogen Technologies Applications.

"For example, when you ignite our flame and touch it to steel, it will cut right through it at 1,400 degrees," Lusko told WND.

"It will melt a hole right through a brick at 4,500 degrees. … It reacts to whatever it touches."

So, Lusko says, the gas has the ability to bond to whatever fuel it is mixed with, like gasoline in a hybrid car.

"Upon combustion, you get a dramatic increase in energy BTUs," he said, "and you get an equally dramatic decrease in emission pollution, because the burn is so highly efficient, what would have come out of the tailpipe as an emission ends up getting burned up and used."

An "electrolyzer" in Klein's 1994 Ford Escort uses electricity from the alternator to initiate the electrolysis process to make the HHO gas out of water, explained Lusko. That gas is then pumped to the manifold and into the gas tank.

"The gas then bonds with the gasoline in the gas tank," Lusko said, "and then upon combustion, that's when you get the reaction, giving you higher gas mileage and cleaner emissions."

Why not run a car with exclusively HHO gas?

"We have combustion engines here that have run completely on our Aquygen," Lusko said, "but it would be a matter of engineering."

Lusko says in tests the mileage of the hybrid vehicle has improved anywhere from 25 to 53 percent.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: energy; scam
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To: floridaobserver
"For example, when you ignite our flame and touch it to steel, it will cut right through it at 1,400 degrees," Lusko told WND.

Then:

"We have combustion engines here that have run completely on our Aquygen," Lusko said

Sorry. I smell Bee Ess.

51 posted on 05/23/2006 9:46:53 AM PDT by nightdriver
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To: floridaobserver

It's a scam until they publish a paper with the reaction mechanism and the amount of energy it takes to create HH0...and keep it stable.


52 posted on 05/23/2006 9:47:20 AM PDT by MilesVeritatis (War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things...." - John Stuart Mill)
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To: JDoutrider
I looked at your link. You could be right, however, I just prefer to have faith in the inventiveness of my fellow man. You know the old saying. "Necessity is the Mother of Invention".

As for the laws of Thermodynamics and Natural Physics,...perhaps they are laws that were made to someday be broken.

Sort of like our immigration laws currently on the books.

53 posted on 05/23/2006 9:47:22 AM PDT by Ranger Drew
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To: floridaobserver

Anybody who believes this will believe anything.


54 posted on 05/23/2006 9:48:17 AM PDT by curmudgeonII (One man...and the Lord...are a majority.)
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To: CougarGA7
Dihydrogen Monoxide Facts!!
55 posted on 05/23/2006 9:48:33 AM PDT by proud_yank (A liberal's 'generosity' is limited to the funds available in someone else's account.)
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To: Abathar
Buy a tank of hydrogen and a tank of oxygen and bubble it through a pipe in your gas tank.

Don't forget to keep the tanks far apart, like these guys do.


56 posted on 05/23/2006 9:48:54 AM PDT by trashcanbred (Anti-social and anti-socialist)
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To: floridaobserver

Foxnews did a report on this too. According to them, Hummer is developing a small fleet of hummvees for the US Military that use this guys technology.


57 posted on 05/23/2006 9:49:34 AM PDT by Leatherneck_MT (An honest man can feel no pleasure in the exercise of power over his fellow citizens.)
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To: floridaobserver

I tried it. It melted a hole clear through my engine block, dropped down, melted through the roadsurface, and kept on going. Prolly in China, by now...


58 posted on 05/23/2006 9:50:47 AM PDT by Hegemony Cricket (Seems to me you've lived your life like a Camel in the wind - blowing smoke from both ends)
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To: Ranger Drew

"I just think folks ought to wait a bit and see before they offhandedly bash everything."

Idiots often engage their mouth before putting thier brain into gear.

Thank God people on this forum weren't inventing things over the last few thousand years.

We'd still be eating berries and hiding from saber tooths.


59 posted on 05/23/2006 9:52:09 AM PDT by Leatherneck_MT (An honest man can feel no pleasure in the exercise of power over his fellow citizens.)
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To: Ranger Drew

A lot of people thought airplanes were impossible. And the way hummingbirds fly violate every law of physics.


60 posted on 05/23/2006 9:53:30 AM PDT by floridaobserver
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To: proud_yank

I've seen this written up before, but that link is the best job I've seen on the perils of dihydrogen monoxide. Thanks for the link.

So who wants to be first to poor some water in their gas tank and see if it runs like a rocket?


61 posted on 05/23/2006 9:54:16 AM PDT by CougarGA7 (There are no trophies for winning wars. Only consequences for losing them.)
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To: Ichneumon
It's a scam.

Yes, but..... if you send me your bank account number and password, my friend in Nigeria will wire you 12 million dollars he inherited from his Uncle, who used to be the Finance Minister of Sierra Leone, and in return for laundering his money, he'll allow you to keep 10% or 1.2 million dollars!

And not only that, but if you sign up today, he'll also send you a herbal remedy known only to the medicine men of Fookarwi tribe that will make you pen*s twice as long.....

There are scams, and then there are transparent scams; this crap is of the latter variety, and anyone who doesn't instantly recognize it as such ought look in the mirror and ask themsleves "WTF is my problem? WHy am I this gullible?"

62 posted on 05/23/2006 9:55:12 AM PDT by longshadow (FReeper #405, entering his ninth year of ignoring nitwits, nutcases, and recycled newbies)
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To: kingu
The US Military is already using an additive (see tagline). It will be coming public soon.
63 posted on 05/23/2006 9:55:36 AM PDT by cibco (www.4ecorp.ws/llarson/)
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To: longshadow

Hey! That's Lowbridge's job.


64 posted on 05/23/2006 9:55:46 AM PDT by CougarGA7 (There are no trophies for winning wars. Only consequences for losing them.)
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To: floridaobserver

I'll take door #2.


65 posted on 05/23/2006 9:56:20 AM PDT by Jim Noble (And you know what I'm talkin' 'bout!)
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To: floridaobserver
Someone sent me a video of this thing about a month ago. Quite frankly, I believe that it's a scam but I'll keep an open mind.

Remember Joe Newman and his energy machine? How many of those are in operation and powering up houses? Of course, if you asked old Joe about this, he would still maintain that it's legit.

I would still like to believe that someone will come up with a viable solution to the energy problem. As the saying goes, "Hope springs eternal."

66 posted on 05/23/2006 9:57:06 AM PDT by davisfh
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To: trashcanbred
I filled a big balloon once with with strait O and acetylene, tied a string to it and then lit it. After I picked myself back up and could see strait again I had a whole new appreciation for FAE's.
67 posted on 05/23/2006 9:59:39 AM PDT by Abathar (Helen Thomas's first job was the test dummy at the Ugly Stick Manufacturing Co.)
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To: Petronski

But will it harm their precious bodily fluids?


68 posted on 05/23/2006 10:00:00 AM PDT by RobRoy
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To: floridaobserver

Presumably electrolysis produces 2H2 and O2 from liquid water. A relatively small volume of water produces a large volume of oxygen. The oxygen is available to oxidize both the hydrogen and any other available fuel (gasoline). It might be possible to build a small engine with high horsepower using this process.

Engines normally require approx 15 parts of air (16% oxygen) per part of fuel. Pure oxygen allows a much richer mixture, generating more work.

Interesting concept with lots of problems associated with implementation. Most engine materials (metals, oils, fuels, gaskets etc) behave as fuels in the presence of oxygen and heat. It would seem everything would have to be made of ceramic.


69 posted on 05/23/2006 10:01:05 AM PDT by BillM
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To: curmudgeonII
Well, I don't believe EVERYTHING, just Nigerians, but I do think that since there is nothing on Snopes yet under Aquygen we should cut a little slack. The piece on CNN.com says some big boys ARE interested in the tech.
Maybe, just maybe.... lets wait and see. No profit in calling everything a scam as soon as we hear about it just because it appears to break some laws of physics. I never liked physics anyway. I say lets break some of those silly laws!!
70 posted on 05/23/2006 10:01:53 AM PDT by mc5cents
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To: floridaobserver

I am a chemist and this is a scam.


71 posted on 05/23/2006 10:02:00 AM PDT by Panzerlied ("We shall never surrender!")
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To: proud_yank
"I just think folks ought to wait a bit and see before they offhandedly bash everything."

Apparently this or a similar gas has been around since the 60's. Search for Browns' gas or Rhodes gas. It is an interesting gas and several companies sell machines that generate the gas.

72 posted on 05/23/2006 10:03:26 AM PDT by lstanle
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Ted Kennedy tried to invent a car that would run on water.


73 posted on 05/23/2006 10:03:56 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: tet68

"1400 degrees ! Bwhahahahahah! Why the stuff isn't even soft yet."

http://education.jlab.org/qa/meltingpoint_01.html

Depends on if it is C or F degrees. If C, than he is right.


74 posted on 05/23/2006 10:05:59 AM PDT by hophead ("Enjoy Every Sandwich")
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To: floridaobserver
The flame, though on its own registers just 259 degrees Fahrenheit, heats up to the melting point of whatever substance it touches, explained Steve Lusko, project manager for Hydrogen Technologies Applications. "For example, when you ignite our flame and touch it to steel, it will cut right through it at 1,400 degrees," Lusko told WND. "It will melt a hole right through a brick at 4,500 degrees. … It reacts to whatever it touches."

Yeah, right. So it melts your engine cylinders as soon as you start the car.

An "electrolyzer" in Klein's 1994 Ford Escort uses electricity from the alternator to initiate the electrolysis process to make the HHO gas out of water, explained Lusko. That gas is then pumped to the manifold and into the gas tank.

It's a good thing alternators run on magic.

75 posted on 05/23/2006 10:06:16 AM PDT by Sloth (We cannot defeat foreign enemies of the Constitution if we yield to the domestic ones.)
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To: proud_yank; floridaobserver
Is this the same flame that if you touch it to your hand it won't burn you??

The video claims that very thing. So let me ask you this:

1) If the flame "registers 259 degF" how can it be warm to the touch?
2) When they put the flame on the tip of the thermometer, why did the thermometer not melt?
3) How does this "warm" flame know to raise its temperature to that of melting steel, but then to remain warm when applied to skin?

76 posted on 05/23/2006 10:06:35 AM PDT by mwilli20
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To: floridaobserver

Conservation of mass/energy; it's not just a good idea, it's the law!


77 posted on 05/23/2006 10:06:49 AM PDT by sima_yi
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To: floridaobserver
I'll be impressed when my car runs on this stuff:
78 posted on 05/23/2006 10:07:56 AM PDT by wolf24 ("It's always easy to rally the stupid.")
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To: floridaobserver
"And the way hummingbirds fly violate every law of physics."

No it doesn't.



http://www.theallineed.com/biology/05101901.htm
79 posted on 05/23/2006 10:09:36 AM PDT by Prokopton
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To: floridaobserver
Denny Klein is president of Hydrogen Technologies Applications in Clearwater, Fla. His patented machine uses an electrical charge to separate the atoms of H2O into HHO, a gas he calls "Aquygen."

Hydrogen can be released from water through an electronic process. However, the process utilizes more energy than you could get back by burning the hydrogen. Chemically, you have H20, which you can split into H2 and O. HHO is not a valid molecular combination. In water, you can chemically make H+ and OH-, but only by combining the hydrogens with some other chemical to make an acid or a base. H2SO4, for instance is Hydrochloric Acid, which is used in lead acid batteries. You can't make HHO, because hydrogen in a gas form becomes H2(not HH, which would spontaneously combine into H2), and if you have H2+O and a heat source, you get H2O.

Why does it take more energy to split H20 into H2 and O than you get if you burn H20? Because H20 is a very stable molecule. Oxygen needs two electrons, and hydrogen has an extra, so you get a strong covalent bond where the hydrogens share their electrons with the oxygen to make a stable molecule. Breaking this bond requires energy. Mixing H2 and O and applying fire creates H2O, and releases the energy that you put into separating them in the first place. Of course, some of this energy is lost to entropy in the separation, and some more is lost in the recombining. So the net effect is that you put in some amount of energy to separate the atoms, but if you burn the product, you never can get out the amount of energy you put into it in the first place, so it would be more efficient to just use the energy you are using to separate the water molecules to drive the car.

Note also that Oxygen in a gas combines spontaneously into O2 and O3(ozone). So, if for some reason you mixed your liberated electrolyzed gases you'd be more likely to get H2 O2 and O3, a very explosive mixture that with a tiny amount of heat or spark would create a nifty little explosion resulting in H2O and heat being released. There really is no safe way to store mixed hydrogen and oxygen. If there were, the Hindenburg would still be sitting in a museum gathering dust somewhere.

80 posted on 05/23/2006 10:10:21 AM PDT by The Enlightener
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To: floridaobserver

The infamous "water-powered car" scam.

The scam doesn't end until they start breaking securities laws (which they usually have carefully avoided) or someone sues them for fraud (and even then it can continue for several years.)





81 posted on 05/23/2006 10:11:52 AM PDT by JustDoItAlways
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To: atomicpossum

82 posted on 05/23/2006 10:12:25 AM PDT by MarineBrat (Talk is cheap because supply exceeds demand.)
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To: The Enlightener

Dont mean to nitpick, but H2SO4 is Sulfuric acid.

Hydrochloric is HCl


83 posted on 05/23/2006 10:14:00 AM PDT by CougarGA7 (There are no trophies for winning wars. Only consequences for losing them.)
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To: ClearCase_guy

"But also, bear in mind that the US Military uses a lot of fuel. If this existed, the DoD would be switching BIG TIME. The inventor couldn't stop them. The military, IIRC, are not bound by patent law."


Actually according to some other stories, this guy is actually working with military to create some test models for the Pentagon.


84 posted on 05/23/2006 10:15:35 AM PDT by jbwbubba
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To: CougarGA7
Dont mean to nitpick, but H2SO4 is Sulfuric acid.

Doh! I was thinking sulfuric acid. I though that was what I wrote. Sorry.

85 posted on 05/23/2006 10:16:43 AM PDT by The Enlightener
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To: cibco
Let's count the number of danger signs here - A video report that shows emissions changes, but no mention of actual fuel savings. If I get a tuneup that results in another mile per gallon, I'm crowing to all my friends, not touting the emissions reduction.

Then there's multilevel marketing. If I owned this, would I bother, if it worked? Absolutely not. I'd have Chevron on the phone right then, finding out if they wouldn't mind buying a billion gallons a year as an additive to their retail fuel sales. Oh, and it'll be double the price if they want the exclusive rights to use it, otherwise BP will have it next week.

And at 12 cents a gallon extra, even at $3.50 a gallon for gas, the savings have to exceed 5 percent to be even viable, if you somehow used it exactly as directed, which most people won't.

But if you're already involved in it, I would do exactly what I suggest - approach a local independant gas station owner, talk to them about adding it to the main tanks, and advertising the advantages. The added price per gallon they can charge would cover the extra costs, and you'd get one hell of a commission.
86 posted on 05/23/2006 10:17:42 AM PDT by kingu (Yeah, I'll vote in 2006, just as soon as a party comes along who listens.)
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To: MilesVeritatis
It's a scam until they publish a paper with the reaction mechanism and the amount of energy it takes to create HH0...and keep it stable."

Technically, it would have to be a "peer-reviewed" paper, but yes.

That's the difference between science and magic. Real science isn't something that a bunch of nincompoops sit around and ARGUE about; it's something that you TEST and either prove or disprove.

If this were real, there would have been a peer-reviewed paper, and people all over the country would be saying: "Yep, we were able to do the same thing, and it we got exactly the same result as the wizard engineer who invented the thing."

Some people are smarter than others; there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But it's frankly appalling to me how many people alive today don't have a CLUE how technology works. 500 years ago, there would be an excuse for this kind of confusion, but not in this day and age.

87 posted on 05/23/2006 10:18:03 AM PDT by noncommie
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To: The Enlightener

No problem. Didn't want you to get flamed for that. You make some real good points in your post.


88 posted on 05/23/2006 10:19:46 AM PDT by CougarGA7 (There are no trophies for winning wars. Only consequences for losing them.)
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To: CougarGA7

Another Fox News report


http://www.freeenergynews.com/Directory/BrownsGas/WaterFuel.wmv


89 posted on 05/23/2006 10:22:21 AM PDT by floridaobserver
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To: floridaobserver

My cousin Jack once filled the tank of his mom's '67 Cougar with unchlorinated water from the garden hose.

Saved her a heap on gas until she got it fixed - but Jack got the most mileage from that one....


90 posted on 05/23/2006 10:25:07 AM PDT by azhenfud (He who always is looking up seldom finds others' lost change.)
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To: floridaobserver

I watched the CNN video. It is ridiculous. it seems that they were just burning hydrogen gas and lying about it. the narrator obviously knows nothing about science or chemistry and was easily fooled. he didn't ask a single hard question. what a fool.


91 posted on 05/23/2006 10:28:37 AM PDT by 1955Ford
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To: RobRoy
But will it harm their precious bodily fluids?

They will be sapped and impurified.

92 posted on 05/23/2006 10:28:45 AM PDT by Petronski (I just love that woman.)
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To: Cyber Liberty
It's gotta be real. - I saw Jethro do this on The Beverly Hillbillies.

And I saw a guy on "One Step Beyond" fill a car with water, drop in a tablet, and away he went...

93 posted on 05/23/2006 10:32:11 AM PDT by LRS
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To: floridaobserver

ping


94 posted on 05/23/2006 10:32:28 AM PDT by gleeaikin
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To: Fintan

Teddy's car?


95 posted on 05/23/2006 10:33:28 AM PDT by 7thson (I've got a seat at the big conference table! I'm gonna paint my logo on it!)
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To: floridaobserver

Wasn't this a David Mamet play?


96 posted on 05/23/2006 10:36:08 AM PDT by RightWingAtheist (Creationism is to conservatism what Howard Dean is to liberalism)
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To: CougarGA7; proud_yank

I don't think they are talking about dihydrogen monoxide. It sounds more like hydrogen hydroxide.

It also sounds like a scam.


97 posted on 05/23/2006 10:38:49 AM PDT by PAR35
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To: shield

Hey shield, you got any links for that battery kit?

Thanks


98 posted on 05/23/2006 10:41:29 AM PDT by true_blue_texican (grateful texan! -- whoops! I'm sober tonight, what happened?)
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To: floridaobserver
Total Scam...Aside from not even being real chemistry, the article is self contradictory. If this gas in a flame 'reacts' with whatever it touches, like burning holes in bricks ot steel, why aren't the cylinders and pistons in his car consumed by the same reaction.

My guess is that he is hydrolyzing the water into hydrogen and oxygen and feeding these gases into his carburator or fuel injector. SO e is taking energy from the generator to make more fuel for the engine.

99 posted on 05/23/2006 10:44:18 AM PDT by doc30 (Democrats are to morals what and Etch-A-Sketch is to Art.)
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To: RightWingAtheist
Wasn't this a David Mamet play?

"Glengarry/Glenross"?

;-)

Or perhaps you're thinking of "The Spanish Prisoner"

100 posted on 05/23/2006 10:45:37 AM PDT by longshadow (FReeper #405, entering his ninth year of ignoring nitwits, nutcases, and recycled newbies)
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