BIG BANG IN ANTARCTICA -- KILLER CRATER FOUND UNDER ICE

Ohio State University ^ | 01 June 2006 | Staff (press release)

[WorkingClassFilth]

I note your abandonment of the Velikovsky fantasies you were pushing.

Because you seem to frame everything you disagree with as ignorance and foolishnness, I already said we'd never reach agreement.

Changing the subject is a sign of weakness.

Again, no. It is, however, instructive as to the nature of scientific suppositions. In more personal terms, you'll kindly recall that you stated "[t]he researchers found NOTHING resembling raw meat." In fact, according to the journal Science, they did.

"...the journal Science reported that a team led by Dr. Schweitzer found flexible connective tissue and branching blood vessels, as well as intact cells (that have the appearance of red blood cells)..."

The point I'm bringing home is that science and famous FReeper scientists are full of contradictions, hubris and error and as I said before, no different than any other human agency. Before this T-Rex deal is played out, I have no doubt that even more fabulous tales and explanations are to be in the offing.

[Mike Darancette]

Antarctic Craters would have been toward the south end, and the Siberian Traps toward the north end, but I am not sure there would have been enough oppositeness

There would be remote damage where the shock waves from the impact met and reinforced each other. On a perfect sphere of consisting density the shock waves should meet and reinforce at the antipodal location. Earth is not a perfect sphere and is not of consistent density so the shock waves would not necessarily reinforce at the exact antipode.

The Siberian area may have already had a working hot spot (as the Deccan Traps had) or a weakened structure so that the Antarctic impactor either triggered or exacerbated the Siberian volcanism.

The Shiva crater theory is not widely accepted.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

"Because you seem to frame everything you disagree with as ignorance and foolishnness, I already said we'd never reach agreement."

But you have done nothing to counter my arguments. Velikovsky's claims have not in any way be validated. He was a nut.

"Again, no."

Yes, it is. You changed the subject because you couldn't answer what I said.

"It is, however, instructive as to the nature of scientific suppositions. In more personal terms, you'll kindly recall that you stated "[t]he researchers found NOTHING resembling raw meat." In fact, according to the journal Science, they did."

No, they didn't. You are quoting answersingenesis, not Science. The journal Science did not say that the researchers found anything like raw meat. AIG lied. As usual.

"The point I'm bringing home is that science and famous FReeper scientists are full of contradictions, hubris and error and as I said before, no different than any other human agency."

And the point I made is that you are dead wrong.

[Mike Darancette]

That is why I think there may be a crater hidden under the Traps.

This does seem to be what may have happened 17 mya when an impactor struck SE Oregon causing the volcanism that created the Snake River and Columbia Basalts and the hot spot that has now migrated to under Yellowstone Park.

[SunkenCiv]

There seem to be periods when impacts occurred for a while; also, impact ejecta would spread the fun around to some extent -- the larger the impact, the worse the damage from the ejecta. Nice post.

[WorkingClassFilth]

Velikovsky, with whatever illustrations he chose to use, tendered the radical idea that the earth was shaped through agents of catastrophe rather than uniformitarian processes. I don't disagree with that and the thread article echoes it. You seem to reject anything the man said and we simply won't reach consensus. 'Nuff said.

Now, regarding the T-Rex issue...

I don't have access to the cited article, but here is the synopsis from the website:

"Soft tissues are preserved within hindlimb elements of Tyrannosaurus rex (Museum of the Rockies specimen 1125). Removal of the mineral phase reveals transparent, flexible, hollow blood vessels containing small round microstructures that can be expressed from the vessels into solution. Some regions of the demineralized bone matrix are highly fibrous, and the matrix possesses elasticity and resilience. Three populations of microstructures have cell-like morphology. Thus, some dinosaurian soft tissues may retain some of their original flexibility, elasticity, and resilience."

This, at 68 million years, is close enough to meat to abandon rhetorical pretense and parsing - you know exactly what I mean. This find is, at the core, beyond comprehension, man. 68 million years! New stories will have to be tendered - and soon. Paraphrasing Dr. Schweitzer, it stands current explanations on their ears. Then again, it wouldn't be the first time that science had pull new explanations out of their butts so I'm certain that they'll know just how to do it.

A pleasant evening to you, Sir!

[F.J. Mitchell]

Bull poo poo, the crater is nothing more than a world class pot hole. We all see what freeze and thaw does even during our relatively temperate winters and summers. Multiply that by a billion and what do ya get? The Mother of all pot holes, that's what!

[CarolinaGuitarman]

"Velikovsky, with whatever illustrations he chose to use, tendered the radical idea that the earth was shaped through agents of catastrophe rather than uniformitarian processes."

He was wrong in every detail.

"I don't disagree with that and the thread article echoes it. You seem to reject anything the man said and we simply won't reach consensus. 'Nuff said."

I reject what he said because nothing he said was right.

"This, at 68 million years, is close enough to meat to abandon rhetorical pretense and parsing - you know exactly what I mean."

You are wrong. It was not at all like *meat*. It was a 3mm in diamter section of the fossil that under chemical treatment showed remnants of cells, maybe.

"This find is, at the core, beyond comprehension, man. 68 million years! New stories will have to be tendered - and soon. Paraphrasing Dr. Schweitzer, it stands current explanations on their ears. Then again, it wouldn't be the first time that science had pull new explanations out of their butts so I'm certain that they'll know just how to do it."

She also said that the creationists who have taken her discovery to mean that raw meat was found were dead wrong.

Again, your bringing up this study, totally unrelated to anything about Velikovsky, shows your desperation and inability to counter what I have said.

[SaveUS]

"Bull poo poo, the crater is nothing more than a world class pot hole."

Please tell me you are joking! If so, you are pretty funny. If not, whew! Oh Boy!

[F.J. Mitchell]

LOL! And thank you. I was trying to be funny. But could you find it in your heart to forgive just a smidgen of spuriousness?

[Ichneumon]

This, at 68 million years, is close enough to meat to abandon rhetorical pretense and parsing

No, it really isn't. Calling it "meat" is both grossly inaccurate and grossly misleading.

you know exactly what I mean.

Yes we do, and what you say is wrong.

[gleeaikin]

"He was wrong in every detail."

Some outside thoughts on your disagreement. First let me say I read 3 of Velikovsky's books about 30 years ago. I had 2 semesters of geology, and 1 of Astronomy in college, 45 years ago. Velikovsky's books dealt with two distinct areas. One was his theory of cometary castastrophy on the earth, related to interaction with the planets. My inclination at the time was to think that the planetary aspect of his theory was wrong. However, I was intrigued by his idea of major catastrophys caused be comets or other boloids. New findings do seem to be confirming that perspective.

Secondly, he listed a large number of unusual phenomena on earth that he suggested as evidence for his theories. These include flash frozen mammoths in Siberia with buttercups in their stomachs, and great masses of shredded animal remains in the far north of our continent. The buttercup material has been repeated in a number of other places, and a book I read entitled (I think) "My Way Was North," described a bluff along the coast of Alaska or Canada that was over 200 feet thick with jumbled animal bones including mammoths (a source of carving ivory). The Ipuwer papyrus describes terrible natural conditions at the time of Egypt's First Intermediate Period, which was a time of great chaos. Recently a 2 mile wide crater was discovered in the drained Iraq marshes that dates to the Ipuwer period.

In sum, I think that Velikovsky's theory of boloid catastrophys was right, his theory of causation was probably wrong, and many of his examples were probably true. I know his books have triggered a life long interest in seeking answers to such questions. For another "kook" check out Graham Hancock. Also lots of fascinating conjecture/information.

[aNYCguy]

Science is fine for showing us how to manipulate the physical world and how to behave in the lab. But outside of that it can't give us truth.

I suppose for truth you'd prefer to invent pleasing axioms out of whole cloth and deduce pleasing conclusions from them. That's fine for you, I suppose. It's a nice exercise and inconvenient observations won't rain on your parade.

Myself, I prefer the provisional, inductive truth of the scientific method.

[aNYCguy]

All the more reason to get out there, explore and colonize.

Hey, I hate to burst your bubble, but it ain't happening.

Besides Mars, and the moon, I mean.

[Robert A Cook PE]

Now, it's believed these could have been oral traditions passed down based on the explosive volcano under Thera, in the Med.

(Doesn't explain Mayan legends, but then again, the Mayan weren't around then. Their civilization/culture was many thousands years later.

[coconutt2000]

Killjoy :-)

[CarolinaGuitarman]

"My inclination at the time was to think that the planetary aspect of his theory was wrong. However, I was intrigued by his idea of major catastrophys caused be comets or other boloids. New findings do seem to be confirming that perspective."

But none of his ideas about comets has panned out. Venus was never a comet. He specifically said that where scientific theory differed from ancient myths, it was science that need to adjust to the myth, not the other way around. He has almost certainly hurt not helped researchers into catastrophes because the idea of extra-planetary impacts was so stigmatized by the kooky examples that Velikovsky invented. His example slowed the reception of legitimate work like this study (which I am not saying is certain, as more work needs to be done).

Velikovsky's ideas have as much scientific support as do the claims of L. Ron Hubbard.

[Heatseeker]

This does seem to be what may have happened 17 mya when an impactor struck SE Oregon causing the volcanism that created the Snake River and Columbia Basalts and the hot spot that has now migrated to under Yellowstone Park.

Coming in a bit late, but do you have a source for this? It sounds fascinating.

Though I'm still sad that any discovery of such a large impact site means "my" impact crater drops a spot in the world size ranking. ;)

[Mike Darancette]

The Snake River Plain began to form 17 million years ago after a meteor impact in what is now southeast Oregon. A weak spot in the crust and mantle formed and created a rhyolitic volcano. As the continental crust drifted to the south west the stationary hot spot, known as the Yellowstone Hotspot, it created new volcanoes. These volcanoes formed a wide swath of flat ground, eating through mountain ranges with violent eruptions. Today the hotspot lies under the geologically active Yellowstone area.

[SunkenCiv]

Thanks! Missed those on the way through yesterday. :'D