Posted on 06/10/2006 9:45:53 PM PDT by churchillbuff
I don't get your point, are you saying that people only believe in things that are true?
If so I strongly disagree with you. You own case might be different, since I do not know you, but it is in my experience that most people choose to believe things that conform with their existing world view and choose not to believe things that does. For example, do you think the people that think GWB knew the attacks on 9/11 were coming and deliberately allowed it to happen believe it because of evidence, or do they believe it because they want to?
No, sorry, I don't; just read it somewhere. It's typical of Hawking to say something like that though, his body may be wasted but not his MIND. I once got a letter from him in re to my question about a black hole being produced in a lab somewhere. According to Hawking Radiation a black hole actually radiates(the polar jets), no matter the size, via QM rules, but the radiation increases as it gets smaller; thus it flashes out of existence expotentially. Some think SOME gamma ray bursters are actually this happening. Of course if Dr Frankenstein DID it in his lab, the earth would become the size of a quarter in milliseconds. But he said : neva hoppen(japanese saying), so don't lose any sleep over it...
Beautiful piece of writing.
"I know the fatuousness of debating with Biblical fundamentalists. It is pointless."
Your understanding of the Bible has been corrupted by Edgar Cayce, who has misled many many people. If you throw away the core teachings of Jesus regarding salvation and embrace the idea of reincarnation, you have destroyed, in one fell swoop, the simple meaning of "you must be born again."
Jesus was talking about a spiritual rebirth, not a physical one.
Origen's early writings (gnostic) were rejected by the church because they were wrong. If a man, inside of his own head (so-called gnosticm), just decides he has thought of a better way to be saved, it doesn't make it so.
I must admit that the IDEA of reincarnation is an attractive one. You fail in one life, you get another chance in the next. And the next . . .
But, my friend, it is not so. You refer to Biblical fundamentalists. That term is simply a definition of people who believe the teachings of the Bible. Yes, there are extremists who handle snakes, etc., but their actions are, again, due to misinterpretations of the Bible. "Do not tempt God" is a scripture that comes to mind to give warning to people like that.
You gave me a link. Here's one for you:
http://logosresourcepages.org/FalseTeachings/cayce.htm
2 Kings 2 (or 4 Kings 2) And as they went on, walking and talking together, behold a fiery chariot, and fiery horses parted them both asunder: and Elias went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Genesis 5.... And Henoch lived sixty-five years, and begot Mathusala. And Henoch walked with God: and lived after he begot Mathusala, three hundred years, and begot sons and daughters. And all the days of Henoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. And he walked with God, and was seen no more: because God took him.
*Elias and Enoch will come again at the end of time to convert Israel
Apocalypse 11... And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and it was said to me: Arise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar and them that adore therein. But the court, which is without the temple, cast out, and measure it not: because it is given unto the Gentiles, and the holy city they shall tread under foot two and forty months: And I will give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.
Elias never died. Neither did Henoch.
Their souls never died. They made their physical ascension as Jesus did, (as they were advanced souls also, or avatars) at the end of their embodiments; that is what this refers to. But before their final embodiment, their bodies had many births and deaths.
Cite Holy Writ to support your ideas. Where does the Bible say Henoch and Elias has many births and deaths?
That's a great story, but having been the 5 year old who asked where and when did Dorothy stop to use the restroom on the way to Oz, I must ask, what if a widow dies who has buried 2 husbands? Will there be awkwardness at that moment of glory?
As you surely know, some skeptical authority figures - Sadducees I think -- asked Jesus a question very similar to this. Didn't faze him. The idea of "awkwardness" doesn't really fit with a realm as astounding as Heaven.
marker, only a marker
That really is a tale that one could hear over a campfire, the night before climbing in a treestand.
Good story. Thanks for sharing it.
I'm afraid you may be waiting quite some time for that scripture reference. Perhaps it's found in one of those recently discovered Gnostic "gospels" we hear so much about these days, because I sure can't find it anywhere in the bible I read.
Perhaps the Epistle of Shirley McClain written to Hollywood.
The Bible teaches that death entered the world because of man's sin. So far so good ...
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin: and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Romans 5:12 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses," Romans 5:14 "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead." I Corinthians 15:21-22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." Again, no quibbling over these scripture passages as presented, but how will the 'all' be applied by the one citing the passages? ...
Some Christians are committed to the idea that the earth is billions of years old. The biggest obstacle to this is the fact that there would be death before sin. And here's where conflating two very different concepts begins to breed confusion ... These teachers often say that there was death before sin since Adam would have eaten (and killed) plants. Killed? As in killed the cell level life and thus a soul level life, or is soul level life without a spirit the nature of plants and animals? Do plants have a soul? It is not clear because the author of the essay has conflated two completely different concepts: death of the soul --where there is a spirit component-- means God's life left the spirit and thus the soul suffers death, and Jesus addressed these two differing meanings of 'dead' on several occasions, most notably when He said 'Let the dead go bury the dead'.
The Bible passages cited are addressing death on a soul/spirit level not a cellular level. As the Genesis account shows us, life speaks from the Spirit to create not only the universe of inorganic but the organic also. But the organic have differing levels of 'life expression'. Where there is no soul (as with plants), the Spirit of God's creating power sustains the plants and perhaps bacterial level life.
The excerpted portion is from an essay which switches between death of soul and death of cellular life without differentiating and in fact conflating the two. Animals are souls, with bodies ... The Holy Spirit created the universe and embued life to cellular level things, but animals have a soul from which life flows, thus they are a different 'species' of life expression. Plants are bodies. Animals are souls WITH bodies. Humans are souls with a spirit component AND a body. Death entered the world for the animal kingdom AND for man ... Adam's spirit component had the 'godness spark' removed thus bringing 'death to the soul' because of a dead spirit. With Adam death to the soul entered the universe, and since animals have souls (but no spirit component), death entered the animal kingdom through Adam. By Christ, this 'curse' of death to the soul is ended and awaiting expression at His return.
Ping, if you're still interested in this discussion ...
If one doubts that death of the cellular level is different from death of the soul level life, please note that even in a dead animal, there is yet some cellular level life continuing until the chemistry of cell level life is no longer possible. Were this not so, organ transplants would be an impossibility, and a living body would not 'reject' tissue from a donation. There is a neat trick in bone transplants which allows bones to be frozen then transplanted when thawed thus avoiding tissue rejection in bone transplants.
"Ping, if you're still interested in this discussion ..."
Thanks for the invitation.
I guess this means I really must share a first-hand account given to me by my mother-in-law, Vera, who wouldn't have known how to tell a lie if her life depended on it.
She was born in Oxford, Arkansas in 1903. A little country girl, before country was cool. She had been raised in the Church of Christ, which is a pretty strict fundamentalist church (no instrumental music allowed in services; you must be baptised before you are saved, instead of as a response to being saved, etc.) Back then, her family owned the only general store in town.
Vera's mother was one of those kind Christian ladies who would sit beside the bed of the dying.
On one of these vigils, Vera, about 16 years old, accompanied her mother to sit by the bed of a saintly old Methodist lady. Vera told me of her, "If there was ever a woman who was not a member of the Church of Christ who would be going to heaven, it was her."
The Methodist lady lived in a remote cabin -- no other cabins were nearby. It was about three in the morning.
All of a sudden, Vera and her mother heard the most ethereal, beautiful music. Vera told me she'd never heard anything so beautiful, before or since.
They both froze, as they listened, knowing there was no earthly explanation for the sound. Vera looked at her mother and whispered, "Did you hear that?"
Her mother could only nod her head, yes.
At that moment, the old lady died gently in her sleep.
Vera told me she and her mother talked about this experience often over the years; and both women, each and every time, reaffirmed their awe about the wonder of it all.
I've always treasured this story. Also, I've always felt that God, in His wisdom, was gently and lovingly telling her something else -- that musical instruments glorify him in worship as much as the a'capella singing so strictly enforced by the Church of Christ.
When I suggested this to her, she was sweet enough to smile and say, "Maybe so."
My first wife had an elderly aunt who lived with her mother, I think her whole life. She and her mother were almost like sisters. When the grandmother died, my wife's aunt grieve deeply. Sadness settled over her like I have never seen before, because she missed her Mother so. One morning in the little kitchen of the country home, as the aunt stood grieving at the kitchen sink, tears rolling softly down her cheeks, her Mother's face appeared on the door of one of the cabinets! Now, please realize that Gertie couldn't have told a lie if someone even tried to coach her. She looked at that image and finally whispered, "Mother, you looks so happy and at peace, I guess I should stop cryin' over missin' you because you're in a better place." With that vision ended Gertie stopped her grieving and went on with life.
Yes, I have heard that singing (see one of my posts above) and it is beautiful.
Thanks for the ping MHGinTN. I am in east Tennessee and the old tales my grandmother told me, added to the things I have experienced, have convinced me there is life after death. That is the promise Jesus died for, everlasting life for us.
Think about how busy we humans are today, and even the most devout religious folks spend their lives so far away from God and his creations. There is too much noise, too many sights, too many easy/instant pleasures available to distract us, we are isolated from the world God intended for us.
When I was in college, in speech class, I gave a speech by Chief Seattle, where he spoke of the white man's world, how in the cities and towns the noise assaulted one's ears. Think of how many distractions we have constantly from God's many gifts and messages.
I personally think God gives us signs everyday, speaks to us constantly, communicates with us more than we'll ever know, but we don't hear and appreciate his messages. Our world and habits are so distractng, keeping us from his creations and gifts.
That's why I love being back in the country, after several decades away. I love to watch the tenacious hummingbirds, the wily racoons, the wooly worms, all of it. I love the quiet and solitude, solitude that allows me to be more aware of His constant presence.
The best sermon I ever heard was one about how God guides and protects even the tiny hummingbird, as it flies to South America and back every year, facing so many dangerous predators, dangerous shearing winds,lack of food, etc., unsurmountable odds. And if he watches after and protects the hummingbirds, surely He is there for each of us too.
I was Baptised once, but I was Saved many years later in the woods, alone in a forest. It was there that I felt God beside me for the first time, and knew that He is real, and he is my Saviour.
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