Posted on 06/17/2006 5:15:15 AM PDT by wintertime
Because teachers and dockworkers and mechanics and autoworkers enter their chosen professions knowing full well that each has inherent salarly limitations. Yet once established, they act as though they are entitled to become millionaires at the taxpayers' expense. And for what? Producing a substandard product that would find any midlevel manager or CEO in a private organization tossed out on his/her a$$ without recourse to their goose-stepping union thugs
From reading through the posts, we teachers are damned if we do and damned if we don't. According to some, I'm a lesser teacher because if I don't go to a top-rated university, but if I do, it's a waste of time. My masters is from University of Virginia and I graduated with a perfect 4.0. Some here may think it's a waste, but I have parents that will disagree with you. My education taught me how to teach reading and I am damn good at it.
As far as pay goes, my pay is determined by two separate groups of board members and I have little control over it, other than to move to a different county. If I chose to spend 90 minutes in the car each way, I could earn $25-30k a year more, but I don't make that choice.
And yes, I do get 10 weeks off in the summer and I like it. If someone here doesn't like the fact that they don't get that time off, be a teacher and bask in the love and admiration of your peers here.
What I especially love is the general idea that I should hold my head in shame and actually grovel to the public at large and beg for a pittance on which to live. Bull-hockey. I earn every penny I'm paid. Of course there are some bad eggs in the profession and I hold those people in contempt and loathing. We are given an important task and abusing that priviledge is a crime. (For those of you getting ready to ask that one important question on your fingers, no I'm not in a union-never have, never will be.)
As far as being overpaid, well, what would most people chose to pay teachers?
Good observation!
you are like most TV politicians - you never address the issues. who cares about spelling or punctuation on a forum? people with nothing better to do in life...YOU. once again I repeat the suggestion get a life.
There's an interesting discussion of teachers' salaries here. It's a long read, but it also points out that some teachers are "overpaid" and some are "underpaid", and tells why.
I was unable to find the report referenced in the article comparing the salaries of teachers to those of average state workers (although I found a number of references to it), but maybe someone else will have better luck than I.
And it's the teacher who was the object of my tirade. My father was a longshoreman in Boston for 45 years and I know first-hand that no man or woman ever worked harder or longer hours than he.
When I eat out, I never begrude the bill when the meal is excellent. I always tip my waiter generously for good service, and 15 percent for bad since I know how hard his job is. However, when the food is mediocre, I always feel let down, and rue how much I have to spend even if the meal is inexpensive.
If the kids were learning, this backlash would not exist. Why do they not learn? I've heard all kinds of excuses: Broken homes, parents on drugs, materialistic culture, spoiled kids. Let's be honest, that defines the 1980's, and test scores have worsened since then.
Is there so much cheating the kids never learn and consequently do poorly on standardized tests? Are you not allowed to insist on good performance? Are writing skills ignored? Are you forced to entertain children? Is there no ethic of excellence taught to the kids? Certainly, if no moral standard is enforced, a group of kids can quickly devolve along Lord of the Flies lines.
What is your biggest challenge in the classroom? Do you think the material you teach now is comparable to what you learned in school, better, worse? Is appropriate material taught, but the children don't make an effort? Do parents cheat for their children and do their children's homework? Do parents call the school to complain about every little thing and insist that grades get changed?
Can students read? Are they taught phonics? Do all students memorize math equations? Is elementary algebra taught to all students?
Please, does anyone have an opinion? Mastery of one's intellect is one of the greatest gifts in life. We are cheating our children by neglecting their intellectual development. We want teachers to earn their salaries, but we need teachers to solve this problem.
People, being a teacher is one hard job. I look forward to the day when teachers regain the professional respect they deserve. Can you imagine having to step foot into a classroom day after day and earn respect from a bunch of nine-year-olds, plus teach them something? I want to pay good teachers well. But I want my kid to learn. I want to trust my kid's teachers. We all do.
Your link does raise the question of how to define "average" compensation. One problem is that the changing nature of the school systems means that the workforce in one year may not be comparable to that of a few years later.
The study completely ignores key factors in attracting teachers - or any employee for that matter.
For example, working conditions. When working conditions are such that they have a negative impact on the ability to hire or retain teachers, those conditions need to be corrected. This report says working conditions do not need to be called into question as a factor in teacher retention.
That is a glaring omission.
Um, because none of the people you mention operate in a FREE MARKET. As far as I know, there's no CEOs union setting wages, demanding benefits, guaranteed employment, etc.
Is there so much cheating the kids never learn and consequently do poorly on standardized tests? Are you not allowed to insist on good performance? Are writing skills ignored? Are you forced to entertain children? Is there no ethic of excellence taught to the kids?
I don't know that cheating is the problem. I do know that in many schools, teachers are not allowed to insist on good performance, and subsequently there is no ethic of excellence for many students. This depends on the principal, frequently. I know of at least one principal who wouldn't let any elementary-aged students fail (lots of students who can't read at grade level from that school), principals who set quotas by grade, and principals who set quotas by class. I had a student last year who had failed most of his classes for the previous year, but the principal had "administratively promoted" the child from middle school to high school (and the student promptly failed all his classes).
Elementary & middle schools seem to be particularly bad about that. They say they don't want 16 year olds in with the little kids, and they say they are afraid of hurting the child's self-esteem.
Writing skills in many cases are not very good, and yes, many principals think we must entertain students, "because they are used to TV and video games and constant entertainment, and if you don't keep them interested they won't learn and they won't behave." Of course, if they behave badly enough, then the principal has to deal with them....
What is your biggest challenge in the classroom? Do you think the material you teach now is comparable to what you learned in school, better, worse? Is appropriate material taught, but the children don't make an effort? Do parents cheat for their children and do their children's homework? Do parents call the school to complain about every little thing and insist that grades get changed?
My biggest challenge is probably students who are several years below grade level in reading and/or math, followed closely by unmotivated students. My biggest complaint about what is taught at the high school level is with the "language arts" classes. I don't think students have to write as much as we did 30+ years ago, or perhaps they are writing more but the same quality of work is not required. More of the writing now seems to be "journaling", but fewer persuasive essays, comparison and contrast papers, and research papers.
Parents do frequently call the school to complain if their child is punished for misbehavior or if they do not agree with the grades. Grade complaints are more frequent with the honors classes, in my experience.
I will say that my current principal is very supportive of the teachers and expects that if students do not master the skills or do the work, they should fail. I have worked for several principals such as the ones I referenced above, however, and I know a number of lower-grades teachers who have and still do.
I think a bigger focus on basic skills mastery in lower grades and less focus on fun and self-esteem would go a long way, but no one who has control over those matters has asked me. ;-)
If your only goal was to be a good teacher then going to an expensive college or university was a waste of money. Community colleges and state universities are MORE than adequate to do the job. I also bet that your colleagues who did not spend big bucks to become a teacher would resent your notion that you are a better teacher than they are.
Unlike other professions, attendance at a top-name college is not at all required to thrive and do well in teaching.
However....if your goal was social prestige, or climbing the social ladder then possibly you did not waste your money.
My masters is from University of Virginia and I graduated with a perfect 4.0. Some here may think it's a waste, but I have parents that will disagree with you. My education taught me how to teach reading and I am damn good at it.
Research shows that master degrees in education do not improve the effectiveness of the teacher. Also,,,,attendance at an expensive college has only one advantage over a state university...snob appeal. The only people impressed by a big name college are other grads of expensive colleges. And,,,again, your colleagues would resent that you believe that your are a better teacher than they simply due to your costly credential. ( They would likely think you are an idiot as well.)<.p>
sounds like you're advocating nationalizing oil industry. otherwise there is no comparison between monies paid to a ceo of a PRIVATE corporation and the salary of a PUBLICLY FUNDED teacher with UNION representation.
It is interesting that someone would consider this a relevant point. Rightfully, teacher's salaries should be compared to the results they produce, not how their salary stacks up to other unrelated fields, other government employees.
In the private sector - an employee's worth is determined by their results. No company pays an employee more than that employees output is worth to the company (simple economics).
Granted, schools don't measure success with profitability, so we can not use that gage. What the schools are measured by is the quality of the students that are in the school system and graduating from it.
In a real world comparison, then, teacher pay should be tied to what the students have learned, how they perform on exit exams.
From the discussions I have seen on FR and the teachers posting to them, I suspect teachers do not really want to be compared to the real world. In that respect, then, the comparison you point to is relevant to the teachers, if not the rest of us.
I learned just about everything I know about teaching reading from UVA and do not resent a single penny spent on that education. UVA has spearheaded the education of teachers of reading away from whole language and towards a developmental program that draws much from the old phonics methods of days gone by. UVA is not the only college involved in this effort, University of Oregon, Vanderbilt and University of Tennessee have combined studies, surveys and resources in this development. Notice that these are all state supported schools. I went to UVA to learn this specific knowledge and I am honored to be a graduate.
As far as my colleagues are concerned, most of those at my school attended strong universities and I don't pick up any resentment. Since I teach the learning disabled all I get is absolute gratitude that my kids are able to read the geography and science texts and of course pass that all important state standard of learning test.
Again you have this funny outlook on teacher education don't you? You act as if you WANT teachers to be under educated just to have one more thing to hate about us. I have picked up on this over and over again. You actually hate me and other teachers here on Free Republic. I am talking about a real, visceral hate of all of us. Yet, I have just as many conservative credentials as you do. We are on the same side of many issues, but differ in this one. For the record I do not dislike or hate you in any way. I respect you for your choices and for the successful way your children have turned out.
But just so we are clear--according to what you have reported, you sent your kids to public schools too.
Their pensions are significant as well.
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