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To: sergey1973
==So in this case, the Islamic fundamentalists are right on target. They maybe ignorant of other traditions, but as far as Jihad is concerned, they are faithful followers of Muhammad.

You are right to point out the Islam is a violent religion. But upon closer inspection, I think you will find that al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, the PLO, Islamic Jihad, etc are not following the traditions of Islam. Islam has very clear scriptures in regards to warfare and conversion. They are indeed violent (and repugnant), but if you read these scriptures carefully you will find that the Islamo-Commie-Fascists are violating Islam left and right. Go back and read scholars such as Daniel Pipes and others, and you will find that this is in fact the case.

If we ever get our act together, we might actually be able to use traditional Islam to our advantage in the WOT. There are already many very respected Muslim leaders who are denouncing the terrorists. But we need to reach a hell of a lot more. Having said that, Saudi, Egyptian Jordanian denunciations (at least so far) of Hezbollah is encouraging. Indeed, various very prominant clerics are now even taking the bold step of issuing fatwas against Hezbollah (http://www.nysun.com/article/36373).

We need to somehow get the Muslim world to hold these terrorists accountable according to the principles of traditional Islam (operating without the proper authority is forbidden, suicide is forbidden, killing of innocent civilians is forbidden, drinking alcohol is forbidden, etc), not to mention their own strategic interests!

I agree with you on this point (at least I think this is the point you are making), we may have to face traditional Islam in future wars should they ever become powerful enough to challenge Europe and fight them in the traditional way (not likely). But in the meantime, we should be trying to move heaven and earth go get them to come over to our side, as many of them did during the Cold War. Indeed, convincing them that the Cold War/Communism never really ended my be just the missing ingredient we need.
52 posted on 07/28/2006 3:01:06 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

I think Daniel Pipes (as good scholar as he is) also misreads Islam.

Muhammad himself was a ruthless warrior bringing Islam to Arabian Penninsula by sword. He is responsible for the destructions of the Jewish Communities in Medina and other places. His successors, like Timur Tamerlane, Saladin, Sultan Mehmet, etc. are well known for their ruthless plunder and systematic destruction of infidels. If Al-Qaida, Hamas, etc. violate Koran on the rules of warfare, than the founder of Islam is violator too. It's a misconception that modern day Islamic terrorists hijacked Islam. They are in fact following the precepts of Koran, Sunna and Hadith, so Daniel Pipes is clearly wrong here.


54 posted on 07/28/2006 3:14:03 PM PDT by sergey1973
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To: GodGunsGuts
"killing of innocent civilians is forbidden"

The catch is who decides who is innocent and who is not. For Jihadists, all "infidels" (non-Muslim) are guilty till they convert to Islam, submit to Islamic rule to live as Dhimmi (to live as "protected" discriminated minority in Islamic country payment of special taxes on non-Muslims, prohibition to worship publicly your religion, etc.).

Again, too many Western Scholars did not study Islamic theology and history hard enough to see that Traditional Islam is the source of terrorism and they were duped by Islamic propaganda that Traditional Islam is "Religion of Peace", etc. Nothing can be further from the truth and 1400 year history of Islam shows plenty of examples of those.

Here is a good post on FR summarizing 1400 of Islamic Jihad. I posted the last section here. Islamic Terrorism – Is it a New Threat?

The bottom-line is that Islamic terrorism that we see today is not a new phenomenon. It has occurred continuously since the 7th century institution of the Islamic faith. The only difference is that throughout the Islamic history, the onus of terrorizing the non-Muslims were undertaken by the Islamic states. The ferocity, destruction and violation have been of much greater scales in the Islamic rulers’ devastating attack of innocent infidel territories and out-posts, slaughtering both military and civilian population (mainly men) in tens of thousands, enslaving their children and women in great multitude and destroying their religious institutions and forcing them to conversion. The present scourge of terrorist atrocity is virtually negligible as compared to those unleashed by the Islamic rulers on the infidels throughout the Islamic history. Just because the tentacles of Islamic terrorism have reached the Western world – it has become such a hype in the last few years post-9/11.

56 posted on 07/28/2006 3:28:31 PM PDT by sergey1973
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