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To: Toddsterpatriot
The only problem is, treaties don't trump the Constitution.

Treaty law was Patrick Henry's "rat" in the original Constitution. For bald-faced smoke and mirrors treatment of the manner in which they are ratified (of which your posts are but a shallow imitation), Hamilton's Federalist 75 really takes the cake.

Not one treaty has EVER been declared unconstitutional, despite the fact that some are physically impossible to satisfy, not to mention outrageously far beyond the scope of the Constitution.

Need an example?

The Convention on Nature Protection and Wild Life Preservation in the Western Hemisphere is so vague and open-ended that it must be read to be believed. How it was ratified in the early 1940s leads one to question the intent (or understanding) of the Senate because its virtually unlimited scope is clearly beyond their powers. From the Preamble (bold emphasis added):
"The Governments of the American Republics, wishing to protect and preserve in their natural habitat representatives of all species and genera of their native flora and fauna, including migratory birds, in sufficient numbers and over areas extensive enough to assure them from becoming extinct through any agency within man's control;"

After going on at considerable length about wilderness areas and national parks, they come back with this language in Article V Section 1:

"The Contracting Governments agree to adopt, or to propose such adoption to their respective appropriate law-making bodies, suitable laws and regulations for the protection and preservation of flora and fauna within their national boundaries but not included in the national parks, national reserves, nature monuments, or strict wilderness reserves referred to in Article II hereof."

All species, all land, no limits to the commitment. Ratification of a treaty with this scope exceeds the constitutional authority of the government of the United States. It is a betrayal of its citizens and their land. It can't work either.

This treaty is contrary to natural law.

Nature is a dynamic, adaptive, and competitive system. Under changing conditions, some species go extinct, indeed, for natural selection to operate, they must. The problem arises because human agency and influence is so pervasive that one can always conclude that a threatened species loss is within man's control. When humans ask, "Which ones lose?" the treaty specifies, "None," and demands no limit to the commitment to save them all. This of course destroys the ability to act as agent to save anything, much less objectively evaluate how best to do the best that can be done.

The demand of this treaty is a mutually exclusive logic. It cannot be satisfied.

So let's take a cursory look at that rat, shall we?

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

With regard to the last phrase, it isn't clear whether it means the Constitution of the US or the respective Constitutions of the several States. My guess is that it is the latter, but if it is not, then we run into problems with the commas in the phrase empowering treaties. To make the ambiguity clear, I will rewrite it two ways.

If one removes the first comma, it reads:

"...all Treaties made, or which shall be made under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land...."

To which any sane person would agree. Treaties adopted lacking Constitutional authority should be void. Now lets look at it the other way:

"...all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States shall be the supreme Law of the Land...."

This reading of the clause limits enforcement of the treaty to the the powers authorized to the United States by the Constitution, which, as long as the final phrase in the clause is missing is fine too. HOWEVER, If one takes the second reading and states that the first comma is the governing attribute it reads like this:

and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

Where we could get all wrapped up wondering which Constitution(s) they were talking about. One then wonders if that also trumps secession.

Note the emphasis on Judges and using the Judiciary to resolve any conflicts. I sometimes wonder if this wasn't a deliberate time bomb. I hate that first comma after the word "made." If I had the power to amend the Constitution, that would be one of the changes I would make (another would require ratification by two thirds of the full Senate as opposed to two thirds of "Senators present," which, considering how many treaties, including the Convention on Nature Protection, have been ratified fraudulently, is a most interesting thread of history).

The remainder of the Constitution is entirely clear that its purpose is to secure unalienable rights. The problem is that the last phrase of Article VI Clause 2 could be interpreted to trump the rest as long as one thinks that the Constitution could include a clause that trumps itself. My guess is that it was demanded by our creditors, those loving European nations that defined what constituted nationhood in order to loan us that money Mr. Hamilton wanted so desperately.

16 posted on 07/30/2006 4:29:21 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (Islam offers three choices: fight, submit, or die.)
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To: Carry_Okie; tubebender; hedgetrimmer; forester; marsh2; calcowgirl; NormsRevenge; dalereed; ...
BOOKMARKED!!!

This reply is probably the most brilliant I ever seen on FR! It explains the massive success of EnvironMentalistic penetration into our GovernMentalistic institutions and system of laws.

Between this legalistic trigger and the earthchanging graphics sent back from Apollo 11, with the totally isolated planet with only a barely perceptable layer of atmosphere... The court of public opinion with the force of the MSM pushing the Godless form of Pagan EnvironMentalism, enforced by GovernMentalism was spawned.

We then had "Silent Spring" and all forms of entertainment from "China Syndrome," to "Water World," to create a whole new class of Americans you could call "Born Again Pagans!!!"

The Endangered Species Act, The Clean Air Act, The Clean Water Act, in fact many Federal Agencies prior to the EPA were given what I had always considered "unconstitutional" power to regulate every pill we take and the food we eat under T.R.'s regime!

His was the first Presidency to proclaim that if the constitution was "silent," then he could go right ahead and do IT! No prior President had ever believed that entire new tac on constitutional waters!!! By the way... he was NOT an "EnvironMentalist!" He was a big game hunter/slaughterer and he had too much dirt, (part of mother earth's face) moved around to be a "Dirt Worshipper!"

21 posted on 07/30/2006 5:07:12 PM PDT by SierraWasp (Where's my "Cheney in '08" bumpersticker!!! He's the only one who can beat Algore!!!)
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To: Carry_Okie; SierraWasp

I spent some time looking over your book at:
http://www.naturalprocess.net/

Wow, very interesting stuff! I'd like to buy it, but the online link was down. Should I send you a check instead?


35 posted on 07/30/2006 6:10:59 PM PDT by traviskicks (http://www.neoperspectives.com/Amnesty_From_Government.htm)
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To: Carry_Okie
For bald-faced smoke and mirrors treatment of the manner in which they are ratified (of which your posts are but a shallow imitation),

That's pretty funny!! For some more laughs, why don't you explain again how US Treasury Bills are backed by water and mineral rights?

49 posted on 07/30/2006 8:12:22 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Why are protectionists so bad at math?)
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To: Carry_Okie

oh, you're already here. nevermind ;)


60 posted on 07/30/2006 9:27:33 PM PDT by King Prout (many complain I am overly literal... this would not be a problem if fewer people were under-precise)
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To: Carry_Okie
My guess is that it was demanded by our creditors, those loving European nations that defined what constituted nationhood in order to loan us that money Mr. Hamilton wanted so desperately.

Yes, I think the nonwithstanding clause was written to reassure the rest of the world that the new, experimental government at Philadelphia could be relied on to keep its word.

The result is absurd, of course. A Constitution which is almost impossible to amend can be changed at will by the President and 2/3 of the Senate?

A treaty banning free speech is enforceable?

The Bricker Amendment debate covered a lot of this territory but couldn't be passed, even in the 1950s.

This will be an interesting ball to keep your eye on.

71 posted on 07/31/2006 2:51:04 AM PDT by Jim Noble (I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit - it's the only way to be sure.)
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