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To: Smittie
By your logic, Osama Bin Laden is the most honorable man alive today.

He is fighting because his code of honor requires it. An army of westerners has invaded his homeland in the Arabian peninsula and the middle east generally. Israel, supported by the US, occupies Muslim land, as does Spain, Greece and Serbia.

Osama didn't start the war, the west did, in the 1920s by destroying the caliphate, in 1948 by establishing Israel, and in 1492, by driving the Moors from Spain.

Osama, by Muslim belief, culture and logic, is an honorable, valiant, brave and just warrior. His religion commands him to do what he does, and it is a duty upon all Muslims.The brave and moral among the Muslims, though, are the ones that refuse to kill innocents, or convert by the sword, or wage violent jihad.

Neither Robert E. Lee or Osama Bin Laden used their talents in the service of what we would consider good, and as a result, are not deserving of honor or glory. They had personal honor, under their own moral codes, that I will readily admit, and said as much several times.

My point regarding conversion was not to claim that Lee made a deathbed conversion, but to state the true fact that not all Christians believe that just because someone repeats the tenets of faith do they get a free pass into heaven. Some crimes might just be deserving of hell no matter how truly you believe in Jesus Christ, perhaps because if you truly believed in Him, you would not be capable of committing the sinful acts. You deny Him with such acts.

From the letter to Philemon:

“For this reason, though I am bold enough in Christ to command you to do your duty, yet I would rather appeal to you on the basis of love— and I, Paul, do this as an old man, and now also as a prisoner of Christ Jesus.” (1:8-9 NRSV)

“I appeal to you for my son Onesimus, who became my son while I was in chains. Formerly he was useless to you, but now he has become useful both to you and to me. I am sending him—who is my very heart—back to you. I would have liked to keep him with me so that he could take your place in helping me while I am in chains for the gospel. But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do will be spontaneous and not forced.” (1:10- 14 NIV)

Paul is saying that his correspondent should release Onesimus from slavery. Paul will not command it, but ask him to do so, as a Christian doing the right thing. Funny that there are still Christians who try to justify the practice of slavery 20 centuries later. It was and remains a sin for a Christian to enslave another human. The Spanish recognized this; their priests argued that the Indians were humans and not animals, and so not subject to slavery, but to conversion. Once it was admitted that they were human, slavery was forbidden.

107 posted on 10/18/2006 7:42:19 PM PDT by Defiant (The War on Terror is not a football game with a clock. It is a Steel Cage Death Match.)
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To: Defiant
Comparing Lee to Osama Bin Laden is quite a stretch since Lee never attacked innocent civilians, the only general in the war that practiced that form of warfare was Sherman.

I guess it boils down to your beliefs about states' rights, if you don't believe in them than Lee was a traitor, if you do then he was loyal to his country at the time, the C.S.A.

Some crimes might just be deserving of hell no matter how truly you believe in Jesus Christ, perhaps because if you truly believed in Him, you would not be capable of committing the sinful acts.

Under that logic we're all doomed unless you discovered how to live a sinless life. What about the thief on the cross?

I don't know many people who still justify slavery but certainly their views were different back then.

Do you hate George Washington too?

120 posted on 10/19/2006 11:38:31 AM PDT by Smittie
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