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Rethinking Illegal Immigration
realclearpolitics.com ^ | November 10, 2006 | Victor Davis Hanson

Posted on 11/10/2006 5:12:23 PM PST by neverdem

Now that the bitter election season is over, both parties will have to return to the explosive issue of illegal immigration.

Increased border patrol, a 700-mile fence to stop the easiest access routes (something President Bush signed into law two weeks ago), employer sanctions and encouragement of one official language can all help solve the crisis. But once the debate is renewed, congressional reformers will be blitzed by advocates of the failed status quo with a series of false assumptions concerning the issue.

Take, for example, the shared self-interest argument - that the benefits to both the U.S. and Mexico of leaving our borders open trumps the need for enforcement of existing laws and outweighs the costs to U.S. taxpayers that result from massive influxes of poor illegal aliens.

Libertarian supporters of relatively open borders, for example, have long argued that illegal immigration is a safety valve for Mexico, one that prevents violent revolution south of our border. By allowing millions of poor people to cross illegally into the United States, we supposedly stabilize Mexico. Billions of dollars in remittances are sent back home to the needy left behind.

Yet for the last several weeks, the Mexican city of Oaxaca has been in near-open revolt. What started out as calls to remove the state governor, Ulises Ruiz, on charges of fraud and corruption has spiraled into a popular uprising of the type that's been seen in Venezuela and Bolivia.

Yet the state of Oaxaca is also one of the chief sources of illegal immigration to the United States. Hundreds of thousands of dissatisfied Oaxacans have fled to the U.S. and now send millions of dollars back southward. Why, then, is the city on the brink of chaos?

Could it be that far from stabilizing Mexico, the continual flight of millions...

(Excerpt) Read more at realclearpolitics.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Editorial; Mexico; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: aliens; illegalimmigration; immigrantlist; vdh; victordavishanson

1 posted on 11/10/2006 5:12:24 PM PST by neverdem
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To: Tolik

Ping


2 posted on 11/10/2006 5:14:45 PM PST by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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Comment #3 Removed by Moderator

To: John Carey
The topic is illegal immigration.
4 posted on 11/10/2006 5:19:50 PM PST by monkeywrench (Deut. 27:17 Cursed be he that removeth his neighbor's landmark)
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To: neverdem
There should be an easy and practical procedure to allow through enough of the right sort of immigrants to meet this country's needs. Right now, it seems that INS/ICE tries to make things as annoying as possible for those who try to do things legally, that people won't mind if they start ignoring the rules for those who don't.

I subscribe to the paperwork theory. The INS/ICE hate paperwork.

If someone gets caught, deporting them requires paperwork; letting them go requires none.

If someone wants to become a citizen that requires lots of paperwork. If they want to become an illegal alien, that requires none.

I wish there were some way to make the people at INS/ICE actually do their jobs. But I think they'd rather avoid paperwork.

5 posted on 11/10/2006 5:21:56 PM PST by supercat (Sony delenda est.)
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To: neverdem

I was going to comment. I was under the impression that I was only required to read one article though.


6 posted on 11/10/2006 5:24:12 PM PST by kinoxi
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To: John Carey
What part of ILLEGAL don't you understand?
7 posted on 11/10/2006 5:32:56 PM PST by Marine Inspector (Customs & Border Protection Officer)
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To: monkeywrench; John Carey
The topic is illegal immigration.

Yes. As in nearly all of them mexican, not this or that. Mexican.

20 million here illegally, who send their money out of the country, who have already gutted the construction industry (unless you are a hispanic working for peanuts, and for a hispanic owner, and living a dozen to a room. - ask, I know - I used to run a construction business - depressing wages and overloading every system one can think of: Medical, Legal, Government assistance, you name it.

Who have zero allegiance to this country or it's laws, or the pride and dignity of it's history.

Yep.

8 posted on 11/10/2006 5:39:17 PM PST by bill1952 ("All that we do is done with an eye towards something else.")
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To: bill1952
Just so all understand, this is an actual business card from one of those many fine illegal immigrants, right in my hometown

Does this match up with any of your made up stories, Mr. Carey?

9 posted on 11/10/2006 5:47:35 PM PST by bill1952 ("All that we do is done with an eye towards something else.")
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Comment #10 Removed by Moderator

To: Admin Moderator
Why give the guy ten chances? You've already given him nine and he's flouted the rules. Just be done with him.
11 posted on 11/10/2006 5:51:55 PM PST by Fairview
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To: Marine Inspector

What part of ILLEGAL don't you understand?


If they won't let us get rid of the illegal immigrtants at least we could trade either socialists or convicts.


12 posted on 11/10/2006 5:52:37 PM PST by freedomfiter2
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To: freedomfiter2

You think the administration will ever spend the money on the fence ? I seem to rememember that they would not hire border patrol agents that congress had budgeted for.


13 posted on 11/10/2006 5:59:55 PM PST by KyHammer (Where's Zarquawi ? ......Blowed up sir!)
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To: neverdem
What is there to "rethink?"

W practically had an orgasm when that reporter reminded him of his pet project which he could now get passed seeing those pesky Conservative were no longer going to be able to obstruct him in the House.

May that SOB CHIEF RINO (who I voted for twice) rot in hell.

I HOPE THAT THE RATS DO IMPEACH HIM---HE DESERVES IT.

14 posted on 11/10/2006 6:15:37 PM PST by seasoned traditionalist ("INFIDEL AND PROUD OF IT.")
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To: neverdem


Now with a new Democratic congress, Bush can finally get his Amnesty act passed. :)

Thank you for voting Democrat. :)

(/sarcasm)


15 posted on 11/10/2006 6:18:20 PM PST by Tzimisce (How Would Mohammed Vote? Hillary for President! www.dndorks.com)
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To: seasoned traditionalist

His answer really made me sick.

susie


16 posted on 11/10/2006 6:35:08 PM PST by brytlea (amnesty--an act of clemency by an authority by which pardon is granted esp. to a group of individual)
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To: seasoned traditionalist
I HOPE THAT THE RATS DO IMPEACH HIM---HE DESERVES IT.

I also hope the RATS impeach him, if that happens they will be so busy fighting with each other they won't have time to pass,

"COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION REFORM!"

17 posted on 11/10/2006 6:56:02 PM PST by c-b 1 (Reporting from behind enemy lines, in occupied AZTLAN.)
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To: neverdem
Anyone want to think about this... a couple weeks ago I found out the labor rate in Tijuana is $2.00 per hour including benefits. $1.00 take home.
18 posted on 11/10/2006 6:56:14 PM PST by Sefton (Don't let the Senate give our country away! Amnesty, No! Enforcement Si!)
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To: Fairview

Read his bio.


19 posted on 11/10/2006 7:46:56 PM PST by Orange1998
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To: Orange1998

He may be very distinguished indeed, but Mr. Robinson has certain rules here, and no one, however distinguished, is exempt from observing them.


20 posted on 11/10/2006 8:07:29 PM PST by Fairview
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To: gubamyster

Ping!


21 posted on 11/10/2006 8:23:31 PM PST by TheLion
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To: neverdem
Now that the elections are over I will no longer hold my tongue in order to help "the party." No amnesty. No faux amnesty. No non-amnesty amnesty.

Deport. Arrest the employers. Close the borders.

22 posted on 11/10/2006 8:32:41 PM PST by TigersEye (Ego chatters endlessly on. Mind speaks in great silence.)
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To: supercat

I'm all for sending all of them to Illinois. It's time California shared the wealth.


23 posted on 11/10/2006 8:38:17 PM PST by Pelham
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To: KyHammer
You think this administration will ever spend the money on the fence ?

Lol. No. Unless they spend it helping more illegals to cross the border.

24 posted on 11/10/2006 8:40:55 PM PST by Pelham (1 Billion 'Guest Workers' to do Jobs Americans Won't Do.)
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To: seasoned traditionalist

Second that.


25 posted on 11/10/2006 8:41:29 PM PST by Pelham (1 Billion 'Guest Workers' to do Jobs Americans Won't Do.)
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To: KyHammer

You think the administration will ever spend the money on the fence ? I seem to rememember that they would not hire border patrol agents that congress had budgeted for.

I'm not holding my breath.


26 posted on 11/11/2006 6:47:17 AM PST by freedomfiter2
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To: KyHammer

You think the administration will ever spend the money on the fence ? I seem to rememember that they would not hire border patrol agents that congress had budgeted for.

I'm not holding my breath.


27 posted on 11/11/2006 6:49:48 AM PST by freedomfiter2
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To: neverdem

Mexicans do not have to worry. The only actions Americans are capable of are: "Debate," "Discussion," "Dialogue," and "The Expression of Different Points of View!" Western Civilization will be the only civilization in history that talked itself to death. Not even one shot, only words, followed by perpetual service for those Americans that remain alive after the sack.


28 posted on 11/11/2006 7:04:24 AM PST by AEMILIUS PAULUS (It is a shame that when these people give a riot)
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To: 1_Inch_Group; 2sheep; 2Trievers; 3AngelaD; 3pools; 3rdcanyon; 4Freedom; 4ourprogeny; 7.62 x 51mm; ..

ping


29 posted on 11/12/2006 11:25:07 PM PST by gubamyster
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To: Willie Green; Wolfie; ex-snook; Jhoffa_; FITZ; arete; FreedomPoster; Red Jones; Pyro7480; ...
employers plead that without cheap foreign labor they would not be able to find enough American workers to maintain the surging American economy
[...]
Areas in the United States that have experienced far less illegal immigration seem to have no insurmountable problems in manning restaurants, cutting lawns or serving the needs of hotel guests. Travel to the Midwest, for example, and you'll see that students are employed as cooks and maids. Construction relies on legal laborers.

"Cheap" labor bump

30 posted on 12/08/2006 5:29:13 AM PST by A. Pole (John McCain: "Pick lettuce!" - http://projectusa.org/sub/forums/lettucepatch/index.php)
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To: neverdem

Gosh, its like Al Gore, when he was 'rethinking government' and look what harm it did to the American people.


31 posted on 12/08/2006 6:18:19 AM PST by hedgetrimmer (I'm a millionaire thanks to the WTO and "free trade" system--Hu Jintao top 10 worst dictators)
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To: All
The ultimate - and more challenging - solution to a shortage of laborers may not be illegal immigration or even guest workers, but higher wages, a change in entitlement eligibility laws or a return to our own former positive attitudes about hard, physical work.

"higher wages" - the quaint notion that supply and demand applies to labor?

How odd. Though I seem to recall an econ course I took almost fifty years ago -- supply and demand principles did apply to labor. I know, I know. I'll see if I can find the textbook.

Thank goodness we've advanced into globalism and a worldwide glut of labor -- and it's so cheap! Not only in terms of labor but that old-fashioned sovereignty thingy -- and who needs that "nation of laws not men" stuff?

32 posted on 12/08/2006 6:53:34 AM PST by WilliamofCarmichael (If modern America's Man on Horseback is out there, Get on the damn horse already!)
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To: All
RE: higher wages: supply and demand principles used to apply to labor

Well, I guess it still does. But there's something new today.

There’s always been a worldwide glut of labor though not as well educated as some are today.

But we could not get to it. There was no labor arbitrage and savvy people of the bygone era had not advanced enough to accept, "Laws?! We don’t need to enforce no stinkin’ immigration laws."

This "the way it is" moment from WoC news service:

Corporate executive praises today’s military volunteers as the best-motivated, brightest, best educated youths in a long, long time. "They are terrific! Their bravery and patriotism are just astounding. They are protecting America and America’s foundation: the American business community. I just wish we could afford to hire them when they get back. But we can’t and still compete. The American worker has become too demanding. . . ."

33 posted on 12/08/2006 8:06:23 AM PST by WilliamofCarmichael (If modern America's Man on Horseback is out there, Get on the damn horse already!)
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To: TigersEye
Deport. Arrest the employers. Close the borders.

As long as we don't seriously go after employers, closing the borders and deporting illegals is not gong to solve the problem. The demand for cheap labor will still exist and desparate people will take extrodinary risks to meet the demand.

34 posted on 12/08/2006 8:21:28 AM PST by lucysmom
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To: WilliamofCarmichael
...a return to our own former positive attitudes about hard, physical work.

Unfortunately, a positive attitude to hard physical work also means paying the worker enough so that he can live indoors, and not depend on soup kitchens and food banks to eat.

35 posted on 12/08/2006 8:33:16 AM PST by lucysmom
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To: lucysmom

I completely agree. The employers are citizens of this nation. They ought to have a greater loyalty than a foreign national and even if they don't they ought to be held to a higher standard. Real prison time and serious financial consequences should be incurred. Plenty of people would love to open businesses to replace those criminals.


36 posted on 12/08/2006 8:52:36 PM PST by TigersEye (Ego chatters on endlessly. Mind speaks in great silence.)
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To: A. Pole

Will these same employers pay for their illegal workers health care and food stamps? I think not. Why should I subsidize a business with my tax money. The business man needs to meet and plan for expense associated with employing people.


37 posted on 12/10/2006 7:56:18 AM PST by nyconse
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To: WilliamofCarmichael

In order for thia country to succeed, we can not afford not to hire them. This so called glut of labor is in other coutries and is their problem. Foreign, cheap labor brings tons of problems such as dangerous third world diseases, culture shock (suburbans living with people who have goats and chickens running around their front lawns), higher bills for hospitals (caring for the illegals (leads to higher insurance costs for all) and ultimatley socialism in order to address the needs of displaced workers. Cheap foreign labor isn't cheap. Why do we have a global market in terms of goods, but slave labor is ok. Slavery never leads to anything good. These people are economic slaves. I am against foreign cheap labor. If business owners can't compete with legal workers than they should not be in business.


38 posted on 12/10/2006 8:01:36 AM PST by nyconse
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To: bill1952

Your right the people who hire them have to have the job redone right,some people don't understand tou get what you pay for.


39 posted on 12/10/2006 8:07:16 AM PST by Vaduz (and just think how clean the cities would become again.)
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To: TigersEye

It's getting to the point where I think we should arrest Bush and congress for failure to enforce our immigration laws, or sue them personally , at least.


40 posted on 12/16/2006 11:13:26 PM PST by XBob (Jail the employers of the INVADERS !!)
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To: neverdem

My 2 cents...Small biz is booming with illegal workers but we only hear about the BIG bust such as Swift. It's past time to seal the border and deport. This should have happened years ago. Something needs to be done NOW!


41 posted on 12/16/2006 11:25:51 PM PST by rrrod
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