God vs. Science

Time.com ^ | Nov. 5, 2006 | DAVID VAN BIEMA

[Frwy]

He did create everything......
Yes. But.....

Now we're getting somewhere. Dare you see it? "Yes" He did create everything. "But"..... all the but's are man's flawed interpretation of what he sees. No, the earth isn't flat and the sun does not revolve around it. That's not God's error. It's man's. Man, using his God given brain, postulates lots of things that aren't true. That doesn't make God wrong. It's flawed human thinking. Hopefully we learn from our mistakes and are willing to correct them as the evidence gets clearer by whatever means are available at the time. They've always been available but man learns by trial and error. Figuring out one thing which helps him figure out the next. God, however, always knew everything he was going to create. All! There was never not God. We don't even have the capacity to wrap our finite brains around that one.

His infinite (OK - Spiritual) brain has always existed - and before that, and before that, and before...... Someone looking to "disprove" that simply says it can't be possible. There is no evidence that it isn't possible. There can be no evidence that it's not possible. Supposition perhaps. Decision, yes but it's wrong supposition/decision. That is the faith. One has it or one has not discovered it yet. I personally can't prove the earth is round but I take it in faith that it is. It was man's flawed supposition that deemed the earth flat at some point in history. It is supposition that we need embryonic stem cells to cure Parkinson's when adult stem cells are used to cure many things and more coming all the time.

This apparent flawed, mortal, material world is not the result of God's spiritual creation. It could not be. (Flawed human supposition)

Whoa, you sneaked another argument into the discussion that is also flawed. God's creation is not only spiritual, though He is Spirit, He created everything out of nothing according to His specs and His perfect desire. Not yours, not mine, not any human being. It was all created before man. No, he didn't create the silver spoon you eat from, but he created everything necessary to produce that spoon. EVERYTHING and man discovered the process through trial and error. Whew, my flawed brain is tired. That's all you get for now. : )

[49th]

It's actually rather simple to prove that earth is round:
The easiest way is to launch a rocket and take photos of the earth... the earth always appears round, the only shape which always appears round is a sphere. (though we know now that the earth is very slightly elliptical)

Another method is simultaneously measuring the length of the shadows cast by identical poles perpendicular to a flat surface that is tangential to the earth's radius at various, distant locations. If indeed the earth is round, then the shadows should all vary in length from one distant location to another, which means that the angle at which the parallel rays of sunlight struck each pole varied from one location to another. (recall the alternate-angles theorem from Geometry class) If the earth is flat, then the lengths of all the shadows should be identical when measured simultaneously, since all rays of sunlight that strike the earth are parallel. However, they are not identical, but in fact, varies in such a way that the angles indicate a spherical surface. (This was one of the earliest methods to determine the radius of the earth)

Now, on to your argument about the infinity and infallibility and perfection of God. You allow one major, major logical flaw into your argument:

"God, however, always knew everything he was going to create. All!"

If that is true then:

1) God knew that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Since he knew and created all, then he created this too.

2) If God created this event, and God is utterly perfect and all his creation perfect, then the "fall" of man must, therefore, be perfect too.

3) If the fall of man is actually perfect then man does not exist in a state of sin.

4) If man does not exist in a state of sin, man does not require salvation.

5) If man does not require salvation, there is no need for a Saviour.

Ultimately, you have just claimed that there is no need for Jesus.

I agree.

[Frwy]

You don't agree with me about the need for a Savior. In fact your being proves the need. I will not include you in my discussions with AUG. He presents himself and his arguments in a manner that invites a believer's views. I've told him when he's had enough to let me know. You, on the other hand, are just looking for a fight. No dice and you don't need to let me know anything else.

[Semper]

Man, using his God given brain, postulates lots of things that aren't true.

You still are not dealing with the obvious inconsistency here. Since God is perfect and his creation reflects that perfection, it is not possible for His offspring (created in his image) to make mistakes. We can not choose or experience anything that God did not make and he did not make evil or anything imperfect. Also, since God is only spiritual, his creation must be only spiritual. If something is not spiritual it could not be created by a spiritual Source. You can't be two different and opposite things at the same time. Spirituality is the opposite of a material, mortal, flawed existence.

The point of all this is that unless and until we begin to see ourselves as the spiritual offspring of a spiritual Source, we will continue to be stuck in a false, mortal, material experience which is a lie and certainly not the creation of a perfect spiritual God. Taken in its entirety, that is the inspired message of the Bible. Again: "Be ye perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect". The only way to "be perfect" is to accept our spiritual nature and deny the apparent material, mortal flawed identity everyone seems to accept.

I don't expect you to understand or accept this concept right away - after all, the one who brought this concept to human consciousness was crucified.