Posted on 11/16/2006 5:33:58 AM PST by Mr. Brightside
WASHINGTON -- Like many fellow Democratic politicians, Sen. Barack Obama is no stranger to the pulpit.
But in December, Obama will go where few progressive Democrats usually venture--to a large, conservative evangelical church that boasts a Sunday attendance of more than 20,000 people.
Even more unusual is that he'll attend at the invitation of megachurch Pastor Rick Warren, evangelical icon and author of the popular Christian book "The Purpose-Driven Life."
Aides to Obama say he will appear at Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, Calif., on Dec. 1, World AIDS Day.
"Sen. Obama has a deep respect for Mr. Warren's commitment to fighting AIDS and poverty," said Obama spokesman Tommy Vietor.
While he was working on his latest book, "The Audacity of Hope," Obama asked Warren to help by reading one of his draft chapters. Warren issued the invitation to Obama to speak at the church next month.
The messages that Friday will focus on AIDS and HIV, a key area of ministry for Saddleback Church. While many conservative Christians have shied away from AIDS because of their discomfort with its connections to premarital sex and homosexuality, Warren and his wife, church co-founder Kay Warren, have been vocal advocates for patients living with the disease.
Shortly before the release of his latest book, Obama issued a call to progressives to shed bias against religious people and to recognize "overlapping values."
(Excerpt) Read more at chicagotribune.com ...
To see error and turn a blind eye is not unity and is not love; in fact, the Bible states that to do so is evidence of hate. A father that does not rebuke a child in error hates his son according to Pro 13:24. When God rebukes and disciplines us, we are told not to despise this because it is the evidence that God loves us. If God ignores our sins, then we know that we are not His children (Heb 12:5). The same is true when we see fellow believers stray from the truth or get caught up in false teaching; we express love toward them by confronting the problem with a spirit of reconciliation. Fear of rejection is not evidence of love for perfect love casts out fear.
Neither would I go far in Saudi Arabia, Iran or Pakistan in that I'm legally prohibited from advocating against the very things that you suggest my rebuke of Rick Warrens theology is on par with. In fact, the very laws that allows the heneious actions to take place prohibit me from proselytizing saving grace by Jesus shed blood on the cross. Proselytizing the Gospel in those countries is a capital offense.
Neither am I proclaiming spiritual superiority above that of Rick Warren, although I do rebuke his flawed doctrine. I believe Rick Warren to be quite sincere, and have no reason to doubt that he is in fact saved. He is nevertheless not promoting the faith with a doctrine that is pure and True to the Word of God. His works, while commendable, are immaterial with respect to the flawed doctrine that he promotes from the pulpit. Missionary work is very commendable, but the focus of missionary work should be winning souls for Christ. This world is dying, and the people that live in it are already dead. Reforming dead men is a futile task. Reformation shouldn't be the objective, but that of spiritual regeneration. Because regeneration and subsequent indwelling of the Holy Spirit begets reformation through sanctification.
Scriptural unity is founded upon sound doctrine and a local church cannot have true unity without building its foundation on the truth of God’s word. A good example of this is explained in Eph 4:11-16. This passage is filled with a lot of great doctrine. Keep in mind that it is the responsibility of leaders to teach sound doctrine to the church so that the body can have unity of purpose in ministry and not be tossed back and forth by every wind of doctrine that becomes popular at the moment. The body is unified when it is edified by love based on sound doctrine (or the truth of scripture); however, division is caused by false doctrine (Rom 16:17-18). Keep in mind that Rom 16:17 is a command.
We are commanded several times in scripture to identify those who teach contrary to the doctrine delivered through scripture and avoid them. Also keep this in mind that doctrine either creates unity or causes division. Sound doctrine creates unity among those who honor scripture and false doctrine creates division. The Bible tells us that, by God’s divine power, we have been given all things that pertain to life and godliness. This has been delivered to us through the scripture. While there may indeed be a small handful of grey areas that are not fully explained, the majority of scripture is crystal clear and leaves little room for disagreement. When it comes to doctrine and how we are taught how to live and have fellowship with God, I believe all of scripture is clear. The only areas that are cloudy are a few minor points where we only see a snapshot of a situation one of the apostles are addressing. When it comes to godly understanding, salvation and knowing God, the Bible gives us clear understanding and sound doctrine.
Many believe erroroneously that we should never judge doctrine or determine what is right or wrong. Scripture pulls no punches in dispelling this misunderstanding, in fact, there can be little doubt that we are not only called - but outright commanded to judge doctrine and guard what is acceptable in the church (II Tim 4:1-5). The primary commands found in this passage: preach the word, convince, rebuke, exhort, teach, be watchful, endure, do the work, fulfill your ministry. For some reason it is difficult for people to accept the fact that we are called to rebuke and convince people who are contrary to the word. We are commanded to do these things because there is a right and there is a wrong. It is true that one day God will sort it all out; however, God has given us a charge to hold to truth and defend the truth here and now. How do we be watchful and stand firm even when the time comes when sound doctrine is not popular even in the church?
First off, it is necessary to define what it means to judge. People often misinterpret the word "judge". In our culture, the word "judging" has become synonymous with the word "condemnation". Even people who do not believe the scriptures will quickly quote one phrase of Jesus anytime their ideas or actions are questioned: Jesus said, judge not lest you be judged. Did Jesus teach that we are not allowed to judge? Quite the contrary. The teaching of Jesus as well as the rest of the New Testament commands us to judge. Even the passage quoted above is completely out of context. In Matthew 7, Jesus is rebuking hypocritical judging. We all will be judged by the same measure we judge by; in other words our very words will be our own witnesses against us.
When judging, some will continue on to condemnation, but that is not the meaning the scripture puts on judging. There is a difference between judging and being judgmental. Scriptural judging is to evaluate an action, doctrine or idea and determine if it is right or wrong (Jno 7:24). The word ‘judge’ is the Greek word ‘krino’ which means: to pick out, separate, approve and to evaluate between right and wrong. This is not condemnation but rather, it is an evaluation between two options. We are called to evaluate and make a judgment between right and wrong based on a righteous standard. There is only one right way to judge - a righteous judgment. Every other judgment is according to human standards. If I am the source of judgment, I will judge based on personal preference.
Why do many, many people label things as evil or sinful that the scripture does not identify as sinful? It is simply human nature to label something as wrong if it does not appeal to my personal taste. This goes for music, style of teaching or preaching, clothes, hair styles and any number of things that have been used to create judgmental statements over the years. Some believe it is a sin to wear working clothes to church even though in the book of James, the scripture states that when we evaluate someone based on clothing, we have "become judges with evil thoughts". Evaluating something as right or wrong based on personal preferences is equal to judging according to appearance and is condemned by scripture.
Our command is to judge with a righteous judgment. It is absurd to say that we are not allowed to judge. Life itself is a non-stop series of judgments. Every decision we make is a judgment. When it comes to spiritual matters, we must have something greater than ourselves to make a sound judgment. Simply put, righteous judgment is judging according to scripture. In truth, I am not doing the judging at all but instead am looking at the judgment God has made and evaluating how an action or doctrine aligns with what God has already revealed. In John 12, Jesus said that He does not judge because those who reject the word already have that which judges them. The word is the judge, our role is to evaluate whether something is in agreement with the Word or is in disagreement with the Word. The time will come that the word will be the final judgment against all who reject truth; however, we are also commanded to test and prove what is acceptable on this side of eternity.
We are to judge ourselves first: Mat 7:1-5; Rom 2:1; I Cor 11:31-32
Do not miss this important point in Corinthians - our judgment is adopted from God. We judge so that there will not be condemnation. A person who is judgmental or condemning points down at those they feel are in error. In reality, we cannot lift ourselves up while using righteous judgment. Righteous judgment does not point down but reaches out. When we see someone walking outside of God’s word, we reach out with the desire to draw them back. Righteous judgment is pleading with someone to walk in the faith we are experiencing while reaching out a hand of encouragement (II Cor 5:20).
We are commanded to test: I Jno 4:1; I Tim 4:1; I Ths 5:21
If we obey Jesus’ command and judge with a righteous judgment, we will not be one of those led astray by deceiving spirits. Keep in mind that false teaching would not be deceiving if it did not sound good. Satan always wraps his lies in truth. The lie mixed into truth is still a lie - in fact, even the whole doctrine becomes a lie. The Bible is filled with warnings to ‘beware, be on guard’, and to watch out for deception. In truth, false teachers will do everything they can to look like they are teaching truth until they have gain the trust of the sheep. At this point they will slip bits and pieces of deception into the doctrine and use the trust that has been built to gain a foothold in which to begin the slow shift of doctrine away from the truth. This is the sign of the last days - deception will be common and the people of God will not hold to sound doctrine but will allow themselves to be led by the false teachers. The difference between the word of God and the deception Satan used to entrap Eve was one word.
We are commanded to approve: Phi 1:9-11; Rom 2:18-20
We are commanded to expose: Eph 5:6-9; Eph 5:10-11; Gal 1:6-9
We are commanded to confront: II Cor 11:12-15; Tit 1:7-11; 1 Tim 6:3-5; Eph 5:11; II Tim 3:16-17; Tit 1:13; Tit 2:15
The fact that the Bible teaches this principle so many times in so many books suggests that would be a matter of critical importance.
Confrontation is not a negative reaction in and of itself; however, we can make it negative. The apostle Paul confronted Peter when his doctrine swayed from the truth (Galatians 2:11-21). Peter and James were intimidated by the Jewish leaders that were pressuring them to conform to the Jewish law and mix this with grace. Their error was causing many immature Christians to be confused and a division began in the church. Paul confronted Peter for the purpose of reconciliation and correction concerning the doctrine of the truth. We know that this criticism was received since Peter later acknowledged Paul had wisdom from God and stated that Paul was his beloved brother (2 Peter 3:15). A false teacher will be threatened when evaluated against scripture but a wise man will not. The Bible says that if you rebuke a wise man, he will love you but a scoffer will hate you (Proverbs 9:8). Rebuke in love is not harsh and confrontation done in a spirit of reconciliation is profitable. However, if a teacher values their philosophies over scripture, they will hate the person who points out the discrepancy.
We are told that to disregard is disobedience: II Jno 1:9-12
This passage addresses false doctrine and tolerance to allow it to be taught. Keep in mind that the majority of churches during this era met in people’s houses. I believe this is what John is addressing when warning that if we receive or greet him. Many receive false teachers and provide them a platform to communicate their message. To say that we do not agree but allow it to continue puts us squarely in the middle of the warning of verse 11, we will share in his evil deeds. The Bible also warns that teachers will receive the greater judgment; therefore, we will also be judged for their sins if we allow this to go unquestioned.
God does not give us the liberty to allow doctrine contrary to Christ to go unchecked. Doctrine is the evidence that someone is of God or not. If someone’s doctrine contradicts the scripture, they are not of God regardless of their works, ministry or any other method of evaluation. The doctrine is the sole standard of measure we are given.
*
And somebody should warn you about John MacArthur.
That McLaren and the rest of the emergent movemant guys are heretics! What is sad is that my church has actually recommended some of Mclaren's books to read. When they did that I knew it was time to look elsewhere.
good works do not get you into heaven. If you add up all of Warren's good deeds with the bad things he is doing it ruins the whole picture. Good works is nothing if you are not following Christ. Warren is putting Non Christ followers on his pulpit to speak to his congregation. Therefore he is guilty of Romans 16:17 and a dangerous teacher.
Be warned, and don't assume that if people don't like Warren that they have done nothing as good as he does. Like I said, good works don't get you into heaven. I know several real Christians who have done so much service in their life time, but the difference is they took the Love of Jesus with them.
Very well put & worth repeating!
What do you mean about sinner's? We are all sinner's so yes we can all do good. It is simple, anyone can do good, but without Jesus it means nothing!
What about the two questions I asked in the post?
Let's take one at a time. To help eliminate any communication problems between us, to start, I'm asking that you pick one of the two and we can go from there.
Yep...And the church is also instructed how to act when a sinner (unsaved) is among them during church.
"But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, 'God is really among you.'" (I Corinthians 14:25-26)
What do you think Obama will leave Saddleback thinking?
Will he be convicted because of his sin or will he be puffed up because he believes he has garnered some more of the "evangelical" vote?
Yes, he is. And he is also responsible for leading people down a path that leads to destruction. He will be held to a higher standard, because he is a shepherd, or pastor.
It is OUR responsibility to point out sprititual error, however. We are required to warn others of false teachers and their false doctrines.
McLaren has been providing the teaching at many pastors' conferences in my former denomination....Not good.
I am sorry that you experienced it as well.
Take heart though! God is in control and the gates of hell are not going to prevail against the true church!
I'm only interested in direct quotes from Warren, his book or his statement of faith and not interested in second hand accounts of what Warren has said or written. Your posts 265, 267 and 268 were posted as a response to my post 174, which was a response to this link, which, unfortunately, misrepresented what Warren wrote in the Purpose Driven Life.
Your post 281, by all appearances, looks like a response to Sunsong's post number 272 and you included me by accident, so I won't take the time to respond to that post although it looks like a good read.
Once I'm finished talking with pby then I'll get back to you. In the mean time, if you have one specific quote in mind from Warren, his books or his website, please let me know and we can start there.
That's a concern of mine as well. I think it's a huge mistake to allow Obama an opportunity to speak in Warren's church.
Discernment is missing in most churches these days, and very few leaders even understand what it is. Rather than depend on Divine guidance from God, they depend on men and their books. Rather than prayer, many current pastors depend on the internet for their sermons. Rather than visit the sick or needy, they depend on "small groups". Rather than preach the true Gospel of Salvation, Heaven and Hell they teach "seeker sensitive" as an easy path to righteousness -- a "cotton candy" form of Christianity. In the end, they end up with a group of shallow pseudo-Christians with no depth, no roots, no meat.
There is nothing praise-worthy in leading people astray with false teaching, false teachers and the supporting of those who zealously guard the murdering of the unborn.
I looked at that link as well. You might be right about p. 58, but did you notice that last section relative to the distortion of Scripture?
The first question was:
Does not Warren ignore/disobey the direct command of Romans 16:17 and does he not also fail to protect the sheep from false teachers and their false teachings (Manning, Nouwen, Merton, Campolo, McLaren, and etc. can all be found on www.pastors.com by quote, book, endorsement and/or etc.)?
Regards,
The video was there and now it is gone...Why?
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheeps clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?" (Matthew 7:15-16)
I went through the link with a fine tooth comb up to the point I reported in post 174, but I don't remember reading too much past that point.
Does not Warren ignore/disobey the direct command of Romans 16:17
Here's Romans 16:17-18 in the Holman translation:
"Now I implore you, brothers, watch out for those who cause dissensions and pitfalls contrary to the doctrine you have learned. Avoid them; for such people do not serve our Lord Christ but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattering words they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting."No doubt those are very important instructions from Paul that we should take seriously.
Your question goes back to why I'm only interested in direct quotes from Warren, his books or his website. While I don't care for all the different translations Warren uses, I really haven't seen anything of theological importance that concerns me. That's not to say theological issues don't exist, just that I haven't seen any...
Please don't forget... in post 288 I asked that "you pick one of the two and we can go from there." If possible, I don't want to leave anything unresolved here so I was hoping we could continue the discussion with your choice of "one of the two" with which to start.
Exactly how does it prove anything?
The messages that Friday will focus on AIDS and HIV, a key area of ministry for Saddleback Church. While many conservative Christians have shied away from AIDS because of their discomfort with its connections to premarital sex and homosexuality, Warren and his wife, church co-founder Kay Warren, have been vocal advocates for patients living with the disease.
Shortly before the release of his latest book, Obama issued a call to progressives to shed bias against religious people and to recognize "overlapping values."
I don't see anything wrong with the gentleman speaking at the church. Or do 'good' Christians only allow Republicans to speak at their churches? Progressives and some Christians do have more in common of late. Unfortunately it's that both believe the government should legislate some form of morality or the government should provide assistance in some form be it minimum wage, etc. And for the life of me, I don't remember reading any words in red that state either.
While the two sides of the one party system may disagree on fundamental issues, it is the Christian thing to welcome those into the church so that they may perhaps learn more about Christ. Funny thing, I can't seem to find partisanship in the Bible....
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