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President's salute not a good idea [Progressives find something else wrong, Reagan did it]
Capital Times ^ | 3-27-07 | Dave Zweifel

Posted on 03/27/2007 4:43:39 PM PDT by SJackson

It raised eyebrows back in 1981 when new President Ronald Reagan began returning the military salutes of the servicemen standing guard when he'd disembark from Air Force One or from Marine 1, the helicopter that would deliver him to the White House lawn.

No presidents before had returned those salutes, not even Dwight D. Eisenhower, who just seven years before he took office had been a five-star Army general. Reagan, who had held the rank of captain in the Army Air Corps during World War II, changed all that and every president since, including our present one, renders the salute.

Although it was far from the biggest issue of the day, many commentators did question the practice at the time, pointing out that while, yes, the president was commander in chief of the military, he wasn't a military person himself and by saluting was insinuating that he was.

I hadn't heard much about that issue since, but noted author Garry Wills, a professor emeritus of history at Northwestern University, brought it up again in an op-ed column he wrote for the New York Times earlier this year.

"We hear constantly now about 'our commander in chief.' The word has become a synonym for 'president.' It is said we 'elected a commander in chief.' It is asked whether this or that candidate is 'worthy to be our commander in chief.'

"But the president is not our commander in chief. He certainly is not mine. I am not in the Army," Wills wrote.

Wills recalled how he cringed back in 1973 when Richard Nixon's chief of staff, Al Haig, tried to justify Nixon's "Saturday Night Massacre" firings because the attorney general and deputy attorney general had refused an order from their "commander in chief."

"President Nixon was not (Elliot Richardson's or William Ruckelshaus') commander in chief," he commented. "The president is not the commander in chief of civilians. He is not even the commander in chief of National Guard troops unless and until they are federalized."

It all may seem like small potatoes, but Wills and others see that attitude and the extension of the salutes as the increasing militarization of U.S. politics.

"The citizenry at large is now thought of as under military discipline," Wills wrote. "The executive branch takes actions in secret, unaccountable to the electorate, to hides its moves from the enemy and protect national secrets."

The bottom line, Wills said, is that "the representative is accountable to citizens. Soldiers are accountable to their officer. The dynamics are different, and to blend them is to undermine the basic principles of our Constitution."


TOPICS: Editorial; Government
KEYWORDS: marines; usmc
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Well sure, it's a bad thing, and Reagan started it, but maybe someone can help me.

OK, it's about all branches, but mostly the President is around Marines in his daily activities.

I never met a President, but my recollection is that when I'm in uniform any senior officer, even if civilian clothing, is due the respect of a salute.

Am I forgetting something here?

No disrespect intended for Ike or any or Reagan's predecessors.

1 posted on 03/27/2007 4:43:40 PM PDT by SJackson
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To: SJackson

I am not in the Army," Wills wrote.



Then he should mind his own business. What is he...JEALOUS? Worried about militarizing politics?????????? Get a life Wills.


2 posted on 03/27/2007 4:46:41 PM PDT by cubreporter
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To: SJackson

This seems to correspond with an article earlier today about Hillary figuring out how to properly salute. Hmmm....


3 posted on 03/27/2007 4:47:29 PM PDT by keepitreal
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To: SJackson

Well, I don't know the rules of the US military, but in the UK and Canada saluting and returning a salute is only done if one is wearing a uniform.


4 posted on 03/27/2007 4:48:07 PM PDT by Squawk 8888 (Is human activity causing the warming trend on Mars?)
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To: SJackson

At least Reagan knew how to salute.


5 posted on 03/27/2007 4:48:08 PM PDT by SkyPilot
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To: cubreporter

Somebody's thinking ahead to Hillary looking hillarious.


6 posted on 03/27/2007 4:48:22 PM PDT by SoCalRight
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To: keepitreal

Missed that one. I don't want to know how Hillary salutes, I've seen her husband.


7 posted on 03/27/2007 4:48:24 PM PDT by SJackson (are you aware of...any listening devices in the Oval Office of the President?, Fred Thompson)
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To: SJackson

Ref
RR & Saluting/Marines

http://www.network54.com/Forum/220604/message/1151415696/A+SENSELESS+SALUTE...OR%2C+PRESIDENTIAL+TRADITION-
http://www.network54.com/Forum/220604/message/1151415696/A+SENSELESS+SALUTE...OR%2C+PRESIDENTIAL+TRADITION-


8 posted on 03/27/2007 4:48:48 PM PDT by gunnyg
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To: SJackson
Reagan was right.

The Soldier

It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press.

It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech.

It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.

It is the soldier, not the lawyer, who has given us the right to a fair trial.

It is the soldier, who salutes the flag, who serves under the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag.

By Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC

9 posted on 03/27/2007 4:48:51 PM PDT by Names Ash Housewares
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To: SJackson
"The citizenry at large is now thought of as under military discipline," Wills wrote.

And Wills is on crack.

10 posted on 03/27/2007 4:48:53 PM PDT by SIDENET (Now selling carbon offsets. Get some today!)
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To: SJackson

What a surprise coming from Commie Dave. As I've stated before, he and I served together in the military years ago.

He had the same contempt for the military back then, but he still cashed his paychecks!

He's SUCH an @ss.


11 posted on 03/27/2007 4:49:30 PM PDT by Diana in Wisconsin (Save The Earth. It's The Only Planet With Chocolate.)
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To: SJackson

Check the photos of FDR during WWII, he often returned the salute by placing his hand over his heart.


12 posted on 03/27/2007 4:50:34 PM PDT by SandRat (Duty, Honor, Country. What else needs to be said?)
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To: SJackson

Just in case she becomes president. (The girl is conscientious!)


13 posted on 03/27/2007 4:50:43 PM PDT by keepitreal
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To: SJackson

The salute is referred to as a "military courtesy." Reagan's return of the salute acknowledged and returned that courtesy; I saw it as an indication of the respect he held for our military and those of us serving in it.


14 posted on 03/27/2007 4:51:19 PM PDT by jimfree (Freep and ye shall find.)
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To: SJackson

I simply don't think this is ever going to be a pressing issue or our time but I'd prefer that Presidents not salute. I think the guy makes a couple of good points to boot. For my part however I just don't want Hillary saluting anybody, period.


15 posted on 03/27/2007 4:51:30 PM PDT by Bogeygolfer
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To: SJackson

Well, this is an easy one to figure out.

As Commander in Chief, the President has final say on military protocols and traditions of all kinds.

If the President wants to salute, the President salutes.

The President can never be wrong in regards to something like this. He is the final authority.


16 posted on 03/27/2007 4:51:43 PM PDT by rgboomers (This space purposely left blank)
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To: SJackson

I've always looked sideways at a person in civilian clothes saluting a person in uniform. But the flipside is that, while a salute is certainly martial, the military doesn't "own" the gesture . . . and ultimately, that's all a salute is (if done by a civilian).


17 posted on 03/27/2007 4:52:34 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: SoCalRight

18 posted on 03/27/2007 4:52:36 PM PDT by SmithL (si vis pacem, para bellum)
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To: gunnyg
Thanks, I'm going to excerpt your site, the bold mine.

http://www.ronaldreagan.com/tradition.html

PRESIDENTIAL TRADITION

I never ceased to enjoy reviewing our men and women in uniform and hope I started a new tradition for presidents. As commander in chief, I discovered it was customary for our uniformed men and women to salute whenever they saw me. When I'd walk down the steps of a helicopter, for example, there was always a marine waiting there to salute me. I was told presidents weren't supposed to return salutes, so I didn't, but this made me feel a little uncomfortable.

Normally, a person offering a salute waits until it is returned, then brings down his hand. Sometimes, I realized, the soldier, sailor, marine, or airman giving me a salute wasn't sure when he was supposed to lower his hand. Initially, I nodded and smiled and said hello and thought maybe that would bring down the hand, but usually it didn't. Finally, one night when Nancy and I were attending a concert at the Marine Corps headquarters, I told the commandant of marines, "I know it's customary for the president to receive these salutes, but I was once an officer and realize that you're not supposed to salute when you're in civilian clothes. I think there ought to be a regulation that the president could return a salute inasmuch as he is commander in chief and civilian clothes are his uniform." "Well, if you did return a salute," the general said, "I don't think anyone would say anything to you about it."

The next time I got a salute, I saluted back. A big grin came over the Marine's face and down came his hand. From then on, I always returned salutes. When George Bush followed me into the White House, I encouraged him to keep up the tradition.

Courtesy of Simon and Schuster

Leadership speaks for itself.

19 posted on 03/27/2007 4:53:09 PM PDT by SJackson (are you aware of...any listening devices in the Oval Office of the President?, Fred Thompson)
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To: Diana in Wisconsin

You're quick, I WAS going to ping you.


20 posted on 03/27/2007 4:53:54 PM PDT by SJackson (are you aware of...any listening devices in the Oval Office of the President?, Fred Thompson)
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To: SJackson

The military salute their commander in chief. In military etiquette, a salute "demands" recognition..what's he supposed to do, nod at them or give them a high 5?..Reagan returns thye salute out of respect for the men and women who offer it.


21 posted on 03/27/2007 4:54:18 PM PDT by ken5050 (The 2008 winning ticket: Rudy/Newtie, with Hunter for SecDef, Pete King at DHS, Bill Simon at Treas)
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To: SJackson
I don't know if it's proper or not. I think of it as the President showing his respect for the military.

To me this is nit-picking on the authors part. It sounds like he's concerned about Mrs. BJ Clinton, he's assuming she's going to be the next Pres., doing it and not doing it correctly
22 posted on 03/27/2007 4:54:20 PM PDT by YellowRoseofTx
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To: jimfree

'The salute is referred to as a "military courtesy." Reagan's return of the salute acknowledged and returned that courtesy; I saw it as an indication of the respect he held for our military and those of us serving in it.'

While I think it was clearly a matter of respect on President Reagan's part I'd still suggest it would be better if our civilian Commander in Chief did not salute. I always thought it was a privilege reserved for the military.


23 posted on 03/27/2007 4:54:51 PM PDT by Bogeygolfer
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To: SJackson

AR 600-25 (Customs and Courtesies) tells us the senior officer present is rendered a salute, in uniform or not. The President as Commander-in-Chief receives this courtesy.

The recipient of a rendering of military courtesy (the salute) is required to return it when in uniform, optional when not. Since the Commander-in-Chief has no specific uniform, it is at the C-in-C's discretion.


24 posted on 03/27/2007 4:55:01 PM PDT by Old Sarge (+ /_\)
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To: SJackson

What's a "progressive"?


25 posted on 03/27/2007 4:56:17 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: 1rudeboy
I've always looked sideways at a person in civilian clothes saluting a person in uniform. But the flipside is that, while a salute is certainly martial, the military doesn't "own" the gesture . . . and ultimately, that's all a salute is (if done by a civilian).

That's not the exact issue here. It's a Marine, in uniform, saluting a superior in civilian clothes. That's required. A return salute is quite different than Kerry saluting the Democratic convention. While perhaps not required, returns aren't, it's a mark of respect, in this context from the Commander in Chief to those serving the nation.

The author is way out of line.

26 posted on 03/27/2007 4:58:04 PM PDT by SJackson (are you aware of...any listening devices in the Oval Office of the President?, Fred Thompson)
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To: SJackson

I agree. This is all simply ivory tower navel-gazing, and I'm just doing my part. :)


27 posted on 03/27/2007 5:00:02 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: SJackson

For you SJackson:

There will be no limp wrested salutes to US Military personnel as her husband Bill Clinton was so famous for when he was president. Bill Clinton was constantly under fire for the way he treated the US Military, and it was always noted that in a letter written to an ROTC Colonel in 1969 Bill admitted that he 'loathed the military.' Hillary will have none of that if she is elected as Commander-in-Chief. According to a report from Matt Drudge, the New York Times will report on Tuesday that she is actually practicing her salute.
http://www.nationalledger.com/artman/publish/article_272612343.shtml

It was in today's NYT too.


28 posted on 03/27/2007 5:00:38 PM PDT by keepitreal
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To: Lancey Howard
What's a "progressive"?

2 points left of Dean. A Bob LaFolette thing which is hardly worth remembering. Wisconsin gave us John Muir and Aldo Leopold.

29 posted on 03/27/2007 5:00:56 PM PDT by SJackson (are you aware of...any listening devices in the Oval Office of the President?, Fred Thompson)
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To: jimfree
The salute is referred to as a "military courtesy." Reagan's return of the salute acknowledged and returned that courtesy; I saw it as an indication of the respect he held for our military and those of us serving in it.

Exactly! I'm no expert on customs and courtesies, but are uniformed military members required to salute the CINC? (whether it is expected to be returned or not)

30 posted on 03/27/2007 5:01:37 PM PDT by operation clinton cleanup
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To: 1rudeboy

My theory is that if the "historians" say that the salute is not appropriate, then Hillary will not have to salute them (something I know that she finds repulsive) and will have a totally "historic" reason not too.


31 posted on 03/27/2007 5:02:04 PM PDT by keepitreal
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To: SJackson
It all may seem like small potatoes, but Wills and others see that attitude and the extension of the salutes as the increasing militarization of U.S. politics.

Well to Zweifel, Wills and others small little minds it may but it's up to the president whether he wants to return a salute.

32 posted on 03/27/2007 5:02:41 PM PDT by jazusamo (http://warchronicle.com/TheyAreNotKillers/DefendOurMarines.htm)
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To: SJackson

Thanks for the except. I know that President Reagan would have wanted to be correct. You can tell by the pictures of the man that he held the military in the highest regard and the salute was sincerely given.


33 posted on 03/27/2007 5:03:17 PM PDT by Menehune56 (Oderint Dum Metuant (Let them hate, so long as they fear - Lucius Accius (170 BC - 86 BC)))
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To: SJackson
"The citizenry at large is now thought of as under military discipline," Wills wrote. "The executive branch takes actions in secret, unaccountable to the electorate, to hides its moves from the enemy and protect national secrets."

This description probably fits Bill Clinton better than almost any other President in history. And yet, none of them ever complained when he did it. When he did it, it was OK. In fact, these same people tried to destroy anyone who had the audacity to point out when Bill Clinton was doing this. How strange!!
34 posted on 03/27/2007 5:03:18 PM PDT by Zetman (I believe the children are the next generation.)
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To: SJackson

SALUTE BY FORMER/RETIRED Marines, Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, etc.--CIVILAN ATTITE/COVERED/UNCOVERED, ETC.

http://gunnyg.blogspot.com/2006_03_28_gunnyg_archive.html
http://gunnyg.blogspot.com/2006_03_28_gunnyg_archive.html


35 posted on 03/27/2007 5:03:50 PM PDT by gunnyg
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To: SJackson
On his last day in DC, President Ford shook my hand and saluted me. I was just a Sgt. He was my Commander in Chief and I was proud to report to him.
36 posted on 03/27/2007 5:04:02 PM PDT by chesty_puller (USMC 70-73 3MAF VN 70-71 US Army 75-79 3d Inf Old Guard)
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To: SkyPilot
At least Reagan knew how to salute.

God bless Ronald Reagan, but he was saluting incorrectly in that picture. When you're not wearing headgear, your index finger should be at the end of your eyebrow, not the middle of your forehead. I'd probably prefer that Presidents didn't salute, if for no other reason than they just screw it up and it looks silly.
37 posted on 03/27/2007 5:04:19 PM PDT by fr_freak
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To: SkyPilot

Hillary doing her best imitation of Ms. Hitler

38 posted on 03/27/2007 5:04:56 PM PDT by Popman ("What I was doing wasn't living, it was dying. I really think God had better plans for me.")
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To: keepitreal

Sounds good to me. I find the thought of Hillary! saluting repulsive also.


39 posted on 03/27/2007 5:05:49 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: SJackson

Wills has a tendency to be a total jagoff.


40 posted on 03/27/2007 5:06:02 PM PDT by Chi-townChief
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To: SJackson

This is just so Hillary won't have to SALUTE!! Can you IMAGINE the RIDICULE when she salutes that servicemember?? LOL!!! What a FRAUD!


41 posted on 03/27/2007 5:06:12 PM PDT by Suzy Quzy (Hillary '08...Her Phoniness is Genuine!!!)
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To: SJackson
The dynamics are different, and to blend them is to undermine the basic principles of our Constitution."

Well, it is important to remember that the Constitution is a living, breathing document which morphs over time to reflect the chic political correctness of the day. It is now a post-9/11 world and naturally there is an "increasing militarization of U.S. politics" wherein the "citizenry at large is now thought of as under military discipline."

Similarly, "the executive branch takes actions in secret, unaccountable to the electorate, to hides its moves from the enemy and protect national secrets." Again, the living, breathing Constitution of today accepts this reality in a post-9/11 world....

LMAO!!! Since when do scumbag liberals like Wills and Zweifel care about the Constitution?
(It's so easy to rub their own foul hypocrisy right back in their faces.)

42 posted on 03/27/2007 5:08:21 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: SJackson

re: Leadership speaks for itself

No wonder the liberals hate him so much!

That simple gesture did more to show the character of the man than a million words could ever say!


43 posted on 03/27/2007 5:09:59 PM PDT by jwparkerjr
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To: SJackson

And for those who may find fault w/the capitalization of Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, etc., as well as Marines--please see the link by Col "Sully" at bottom of the GyG site linked below...

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/soldier.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/soldier.html


44 posted on 03/27/2007 5:10:11 PM PDT by gunnyg
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To: SJackson

Was this guy Wills in gaza when the cess pool overflowed.

Just asking , He is so full of raw sewage, AKA S---, that I figured he swallowed a full load.


45 posted on 03/27/2007 5:17:49 PM PDT by sgtbono2002 (I will forgive Jane Fonda, when the Jews forgive Hitler.)
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To: rgboomers
As Commander in Chief, ...If the President wants to salute, the President salutes.

Exactly. And Hitlery and her folks should understand that all of us who served know that she held the military in contempt before she didn't (if she ever didn't). We are Chelsea's trained pigs, remember. She can practice all she wants. It is not the execution that counts so much as the spirit of the thing.

46 posted on 03/27/2007 5:22:08 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: SJackson
Wills recalled how he cringed back in 1973 when Richard Nixon's chief of staff, Al Haig, tried to justify Nixon's "Saturday Night Massacre" firings because the attorney general and deputy attorney general had refused an order from their "commander in chief."

With all respect, Gen. Haig, when the Pres. issues a management diretive to a civilian, it is not a military matter.

And history will prove I am right, because Elliot Richardson was not Court Martialed for refusing to fire Archibald Cox.

47 posted on 03/27/2007 5:22:21 PM PDT by truth_seeker
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To: SJackson

I know you were. I started my "Dream Job" a few weeks ago, so my time on FR is now limited. :(

I know my priorities are all screwed up, but it's fun working hard and being happy and driving the Liberals insane in the process, LOL!


48 posted on 03/27/2007 5:26:07 PM PDT by Diana in Wisconsin (Save The Earth. It's The Only Planet With Chocolate.)
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To: Bogeygolfer
While I think it was clearly a matter of respect on President Reagan's part I'd still suggest it would be better if our civilian Commander in Chief did not salute. I always thought it was a privilege reserved for the military.

Indeed it is prescribed for the military. Reserved to the military? I have never read or heard that from any published guidance on the matter.

49 posted on 03/27/2007 5:28:30 PM PDT by jimfree (Freep and ye shall find.)
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To: YellowRoseofTx
Mrs. BJ Clinton, he's assuming she's going to be the next Pres., doing it and not doing it correctly

Of course she won't do it correctly. A proper salute starts down in the gut where you feel pride in your flag and respect for your fellow countrymen and women who serve it. If she can't get that part right, no amount of practice in front of a mirror will fool anyone. Maggie T. could get it right without any practice, I'll bet. Hitlery might as well try to salute with her cleft hoof or forked tail

50 posted on 03/27/2007 5:29:22 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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