The Mormon Advantage

Townhall.com ^ | 4/5/2007 | Maggie Gallagher

[MHGinTN]

See you on future threads. Peace be with you, brother.

[restornu]

I long ago accomplished what I set out to do - keep innocent lurkers from ever assuming the teaching of mormonism is Christian. As you know, polytheism is not Christian.

As you know AMPU that you are calling a belief of God the Father, and God the only begotten Son, and God the Holy Ghost is polytheism!

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“the LDS say it the Godhead; Father Son & Holy Ghost 3 seperate beings.”

Thank you for simply owning what you believe without
avoiding saying the truth.

Three Gods is not monotheism, as the Bible teaches.
Christians are monotheistic in doctrine.

Cults and Heresies are not. In this way, mormonism
and Jehovah’s Witnesses, and other groups are identical
when they have left Christian orthodoxy and changed
the nature of God.

Again, thank you for speaking the truth clearly.

best,
ampu

[aMorePerfectUnion]

restornu,
No, it is not belief in the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit
that is polytheism. It is the failure of any group to
understand that there is ONE God that makes it polytheistic.

In this instance, you have perfectly expressed the heresy
of tri-theism - three separate Gods.

I am not complaining about your right to believe anything
you wish. I am pointing out it is not a Christian belief.

When Hindus express belief in many gods, I have no beef with
that. They are not Christian. When groups try to pass
themselves off as Christian, when they deny the truthfulness
of the Bible, they are not Christian. They are at best
teaching a heresy. At worst, a cult.

best,
ampu

[restornu]

Cults and Heresies are not. In this way, mormonism and Jehovah’s Witnesses, and other groups are identical when they have left Christian orthodoxy and changed the nature of God

You still continue in showing disrespectful towards the LDS by not using capital "M" on Mormon a prophet of the Lord.

We did not change anything AMPU the Lord restored his Church again on earth!

It seems if you ignore certain post that don't fit your agenda that is not kosher AMPU...

BTW you still haven't answered AMPU how God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost who are part of the Godhead are not 3 seperated being in the family of God! You familar with the Lord's Prayer where it says-
"On earth as it tis in Heaven!"
In Heaven it is Father and Son, on Earth it is Father and Sons...
Who ever gave anyone permission to change the meaning of Words?

The scriptures testifies. John 17 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. John 10
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Did Jesus lie when he said we were gods?

How about answering these post?

[DelphiUser]

>What is orthodox is not necessarily that which stems from authority but that which
>stems from consensus, by definition.

You know the more I think about this statement, it explains a lot.

Orthodox - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/orthodox

Means men agree on it, it’s traditional, it’s common and “Established”

Mormons never to my knowledge stated that they are any of these things.

Mormons stated that their doctrine of the Godhead which is in the Bible is more correct than the Orthodox dogma of the trinity which is not found in the Bible.

Are you actually saying it is more important to you to be in tune with the consensus than to be in tune with God? That is what this statement says and the fact that it ever left your lips, er, keyboard says things I would never have dared to say.

As for your points about the Arian Controversy, I have always been aware of it, not that I knew it by that name, (thanks it will make my research much easier on newadvent) I would still like any Links you think are relevant to my research.

>It is interesting that Constantine, even though he instigated the Conference of Niceae
>which decided against the Arian doctrine, he, in the end, became a convert to the Arian
>belief.

Yes, it is apparently, he did not place as much faith in consensus and orthodoxy as you do, even though he was creating it, or maybe that’s why (grin).

[aMorePerfectUnion]

restornu,

First, I do not capitalize the word “mormonism” because
I do not respect this heretical teaching. If I start a
sentence with that word, I will capitalize it. I am
not required to show respect toward something I certainly
do not respect. If you respect it, you will capitalize
it yourself.

If Joseph Smith “restored” the church, how did he miss
Deuteronomy 6:4? Why was it necessary to make up non-Biblical
things to add to God’s Word? Even words added to the JS KJV
that are not there in the original?

Finally, you have asked me several times to explain verses
and I have done so. When I do, you exclaim that those
are the wisdom of men and dogmas of men. In other words,
if I do what you ask, it is “the wisdom of man.” After a
few times, I realized that you did not really want me
to explain any of these verses. It took me a while to get
to that point. I get it now. Whatever the mormonism
doctrine teaches, is what it means, so why ask?

There is also the issue of getting into a discussion
and responding to multiple people at the same time. If
something is irrelevant, it is not worth responding to.

My email box has been busy since this thread started.
I have prioritized responding to those who never knew
mormonism taught several of these things. I am glad I
can tip them off before they are drawn in. It all sounds
so good on the surface- until you look at the Bible.
This discussion has benefited many, many people. This
has been my reason to continue for 1600 posts.

Anyway, because of these reasons, I reverted to God’s Math
- thinking we could all agree on counting. :-)

I count one God. How many do you count?

best,
ampu

[colorcountry]

Bump for private messages!

[Liberty Rattler]

You should not asume that because I disagree with Mormonism that I agree with what is accepted as orthodox.

I was simply illustrating the point of view of many who disagree with Mormonism because I was seeing how so many of you, Mormons, were missing the point.

My disagreements with Mormonism are in quite a different vein. I believe the BOM to be a work of fiction and J.Smith to be a con-man. Therefore, in my opinion, your religion is based on false premises from the start. Simple as that.

Please don’t take that as a personal insult, it’s just my opinion based on experience and education.

I could go on and criticize, say, your testimony, but I swore off fault-finding, at least for now.

I think that the Arian Controversy is very illustrative of how organized religions wind up at odds with each other, so there’s much for us all to learn there.

I’d still like to hear from the orthodox camp whether or how they can trace the line of authority from the early church to the time of Constantine.

My original post on this thread, where I asked why people thought Mormonism was a cult, was not meant to imply that I thought it was, although, it seems many of you Mormons thought that’s what I meant. I was simply interested in the point of view of other people who disbelieve in Mormonism. That is what this thread is about. IE. The perception of Mormonism.

Since I grew up in Mormonism but rejected it, my point of view is very different from those who were never a Mormon.

You, the Mormon Defenders, on this thread have been too quick to take offense, in my opinion. Maybe it’s persecution syndrome. Who knows.

Remember, my ancestors went through the same persecutions as the others here, who have the kind of long Mormon family history as I do. You can’t say that I am not sympathetic or that my opinion of Mormonism is driven by the media or any other influence but my own experience.

I am interested in history and all various religions and their controversies, though, and I find that there is much to learn, even from those who I disagree with.

I’ve had my say on this thread. I’ve laid it right out for all to see. I’ve shared some of my own experience (Only a bit of it, mind you.)I took hits, was wrenched emotionally, recovered, and rejoined the debate in the interest of greater understanding for all.

Maybe that helps you understand a bit more.

Peace be with you.

[restornu]

Than we should not be reading the rest of the Bible using your kind of lodgic...

BTW you still have not answered my questions which I know you never will, because it does not fit your lobsided views!

There is no need for us to continue when you don’t respect another faith and on top of that I never realized how **** one could be in 2007.

Cheers!

[restornu]

My disagreements with Mormonism are in quite a different vein. I believe the BOM to be a work of fiction and J.Smith to be a con-man. Therefore, in my opinion, your religion is based on false premises from the start. Simple as that.

Please don’t take that as a personal insult,

How in the world could I not take that as an insult LR?

Hel-loooo!

[restornu]

I guess your closing

Peace be with you.

is somekind of a bandaid?

I don’t understand the hearts of people today they do the darnest things and it never occures that it was so unkind, even if what you say is surely not true, it is thoughtless!

When I engaged with you before it was trying to understand and reach that place of common ground, but is backfired and I caused you pain for which I am sorry.

But my words were not deliberate no matter how you want to view it.

But this kind of message was aimed to smack every LDS here to cause pain why I don’t know.

I thank the Lord I know better but someone who would do that is not a very nice human being!

[DelphiUser]

>All the wonderful arguments going on here in posts about all the exotic pros and cons of
>various writings simply don’t address the historical facts of the actions of Joseph Smith,
>Brigham Young and the LDS church.

I thought we addressed all those earlier, if not, so? What does Joseph smith, Brigham Young or any other LDS historical figure have to do with Mitt Romney’s political future? The answer should be, Nothing.

>Nor do they address the fact that in any LDS chapel on any given Sunday you can hear
>the statement, “I KNOW this is the one and only true church.”

Nor the fact that Catholics believe they are the only true church, but that did not stop one from being elected president.

>Remember, non-mormons, when you are discussing religion with a mormon, THAT is
>where they are coming from.....they have absolutely NO interest in YOUR religion or your arguments,

I reserve the right to break into run on sentences to respond. I guess this lack of interest is why I went to a Buddhist seminary and to as many protestant churches when growing up as I could get entrance to with friends. Because I didn’t care. You sir are mistaken in applying such motives to all of such a large group (statistics being what they are, you cannot be correct).

>because they and they alone are the chosen ones and they believe fervently that they
>have the God(s)-given right to say and do anything to defend their religion.

I have yet in all my years of searching found a church that claimed to be “The Wrong Church”. No church that I have researched has ever said they were teaching false doctrine. No one that I can find is saying that they are mistaken about the nature of God.

If you have information on such a church, please forward the links to me and I will be very busy reading up on them for a while. Until then, comments about how we believe our church is true will be filed right next to the articles on the sky being blue and things falling when dropped.

>That includes the right to ignore forum rules repeatedly.

While I have on occasion bent a rule or two on FR it was not my intention, my most common oversight is omitting someone in the “to” list when posting. If all posters who had ever done this were banned from posting on this thread, I dare say the thread would be very short.

>From sevenbak’s post #1551 I have to ask myself if Jesus would ever do that. I don’t
>recall him ever belittling any common believers....but I have been belittled on this
>thread, and so have several others. Perhaps it’s fine to belittle non-believers?

No, it’s not fine, then again, one persons’ joke is another person’s ad homonym attack. Please pos the links to the posts that you feel were belittling on this thread, especially if they are from me so I may apologize.

>Neither Mitt nor the LDS members of this forum have seen anything like the fury that
>will be unleashed on him from the clinton machine and the media, and the Republicans
>will go down to defeat, again.

This is precisely why I am pulling for Fred Thompson. I think he is the better secular candidate and the beter choice for “Winnablility” but because I am a Mormon many here assume I am for Mitt just because he is Mormon too. These people are mistaken.

[Liberty Rattler]

How do you not take personal insult?

The same way you expect others not to when you and your Church calls them apostate, and their religious beliefs “abomination”.

Every time you say you believe your Church to be the only true one, you insult every non-Mormon in the world, in the same way that you take offense yourself when I tell you your religion is phony.

Do you understand now?

Turn the other cheek, debate on issues and put your feelings behind you. That’s all it takes.

[DelphiUser]

Thank you, Great quote!

[Liberty Rattler]

You know, Restornu, you really should go and read what I was responding to.

Read how Delphi was giving me cheap shots. (While missing my point BTW)

You really need to realize that everyone out in the world is not obligated to kowtow to your religion.

You’re free to believe as you please, but I’m free to have and express my opinion too.

When I wish you Peace and love I mean it. But we can still disagree and debate on any number of subjects.

[DreamsofPolycarp]

These simple concepts are reasonable, compelling and spiritually powerful. They are not the stuff of which foolishly blind cults are made.

Maybe. But they are also unbiblical heresies and have been condemned as such repeatedly before Moroni dusted them off to recycle them thru the person of Joseph Smith. If you truly believe them and the theology behind them, you will certainly spend an eternity in the punishment that Mormon theology denies.

I have had numerous conversation with LDS folks. I have no problem with the article (it is true, by and large) and I agree that Mormons are people of moral rectitude and respect for the family. That much is good and I can commend them for it.

Once we get past there, Mormonism denies just about every major doctrine of the bible. Not trying to be hateful..., just the way it is. Not only that, the book of Mormon makes archaeological claims about peoples and settlements in pre-European America that have been demonstrated to be undeniably false. Huge people groups that simply never existed.

I don't expect to "win someone over" simply by posting this stuff on a bb. However, for intellectual honesty's sake, why don't you get a copy of the New Testament (NOT be book of mormon, or a LDS commentary on the NT), read it, and then read a book by Walter Martin (yes, I am sure you have HEARD of him, and may have read an article..., but you should sit down and actually READ the "Maze of Mormonism" for example). Then see if your "heart burns within you."

Grace to you. DoP

[restornu]

You really need to realize that everyone out in the world is not obligated to kowtow to your religion.

This has nothing to do with "kowtow" and no practicing LDS I know of would expect that of their fellowman.

To use the word "kowtow" is a distortion of what is going on here!

I am the only LDS among my family and friends and never had I thought they have to "kowtow", so least of all a stranger I don't would I expect too!

Repect is civility and has nothing to do with "kowtow"!

Nor would to do anything to cause harm or bring pain!

I was a convert at 38 and I have never bashed my former faith let alone as a hobby.

You are right you are free to have your opinion even if it is mean spirited!

I won't sign with a veneer "band aid" nor I do I wish you ill!

[restornu]

...why don't you get a copy of the New Testament (NOT be book of mormon, or a LDS commentary on the NT), read it, and then read a book by Walter Martin (yes, I am sure you have HEARD of him, and may have read an article..., but you should sit down and actually READ the "Maze of Mormonism" for example). Then see if your "heart burns within you."

Walter Martin was my first anti LDS encounter when I had just coverted, thank the Lord I had a witness from the Holy Ghost that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is true.

Next....

[DelphiUser]

>The concept of pre-incarnation reminds me of the Mormon idea of preexistence.
>Perhaps preincarnate existence is even a better term than preexistence, since, after all
>how could anything exist before it existed?

Simple, Mormons believe that the creation happened twice, once as spirit, and one as incarnate. The spiritual creation is shown in the Book of Genesis Chapter 2 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/gen/2) I will quote a couple of Scriptures to show you what I mean:

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

So God created everything before the earth was.

If you read the rest of chapter two, God goes over the creation again, even though everything was created in Genesis 1. To Mormons this is god explaining the spiritual creation that had also happened (I am not even trying to be “Orthodox” here, OK?)

>If Mormons believe in a physical body after death in this world, then wouldn’t that be
>the definition of reincarnation?

Reincarnation and Resurection are vastly different.

Reincarnation – (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/reincarnation)
Resurrection - (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Resurrection)

While we do believe in a physical resurrection, I see a big difference. With resurrection you get your body back, “not one hair on your head is lost” moreover your Body is Immortal and you cannot die again. With reincarnation, you come back as someone, or something else to start over and live as a mortal again usually with no memory of your past life.

> Peace and love be with us all, even with the heretics.

Peace be unto you, even you Orthodox Christians (grin)